Session Transcript:
Chuck D
Red Bull Music Academy, Barcelona 2008

The video stream for this lecture can be watched here.

Chuck D’s a hip hop colossus, the mouth almighty behind its finest hour, It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back. Chuck talks about the making of that landmark, and about much, much more besides. He began life wanting to be a sports announcer, but got sucked into hip hop so he could dance with girls. Now he dispenses words of wisdom on the industry, politics, art, computers, life, family and, if you asked him he could probably tell you a thing or three about the kitchen sink. Make sure you’ve got time for this – once he’s started, he doesn’t stop.

RBMA: »Please, won’t you join me in welcoming Mr Chuck D (applause)? Yesterday all these participants came in and introduced themselves, talked a little bit about their personal journey to get here. I wondered if you might share your journey to get to music, because it really wasn’t part of the game plan.«

Chuck D: »No. Number one, my personal journey to get here yesterday was kind of fucked up by London Heathrow and then Iberia Airlines, they just took all damn day and I lost my bag. So I couldn’t make you a really righteous CD, I just pulled something off what I call a vamp player which I’ll show you later. My personal musical journey came by accident because I grew up as a big sports fan. New York, where I was born, in Queens, I was a big fan of baseball, which is the New York Mets, and basketball, which is the New York Knicks, and American football, which is the New York Jets. And around the time I was eight or nine, they all won their championships, so that threw me further into fanaticism. I just wanted to be a sports announcer, listening to sports talk shows. Music was always in my household. My mother was into Motown, Stax, Atlantic in the ‘60s, my father played jazz and some James Brown. I listened to music quite casually, but then in the ‘70s I listened to a lot of AM radio - big AM radio fan. WABC was the radio station in the New York metropolitan area. It played top 40, pop radio, but what I thought was exciting were the DJs, the jocks, and the way they used to come on (affects voice): “WABC, Dan Ingram.” I just loved the voices and I wanted to become a sports announcer. And there was one guy who bridged the gap, George Michael Red.«

RBMA: »The Sports Machine, not the George Michael you may all know from Careless Whisper.«

Chuck D: »Not that George Michael. He was a DJ on WABC, so when he flipped over into sports that was a cool thing. The music bug bit me around ’76/’77. I wanted to play ball all the time and I went to this place called Higher Ground named after the Stevie Wonder record. Half of the place was basketball, half was music and they had this DJ. Now we always thought a DJ meant a discotheque guy and they would wear silk shirts and be behind this gigantic foundation platform. So we would walk a mile to this place in the wintertime to get our ball on. But they had this one place, two rims, everybody wanted to be at this place that was open to the kids. So you’re looking at two basketball rims with one hundred brothers waiting to play. So who got next? This shit’s gonna take forever. But as you’re sitting there, knowing damn well you’re not going to play, on the other side of the room is this DJ, wearing the silk shirt. All of us just had these tank tops or whatever. Before, music and sports were totally different things. So we were over on one side, trying to look hard, just nodding our heads. This is when disco was just coming in from the over-funk period – funk got played out because everybody was trying to do it. Once David Bowie did Fame, it was: “OK, I’m tired of this shit.” Disco came in and it started off quite funky, because you had the O’Jays and I Love Music, a lot of the Gamble and Huff sort of stuff, strings and orchestral arrangements and Stylistics and Thom Bell. They’d upped the beat and changed the arrangement, that’s how disco came in and it was very cool in the beginning, around ’75/’77. So the DJ was playing this record by a group called War, who’d suddenly upped their tempo. A lot of the funk groups upped their tempo – Mandrill, War, better known groups like Kool & The Gang, when they did Ladies Night two years later. We’re watching this DJ as we’re waiting to play some ball and the DJ is playing Galaxy by War. So I’m sitting there and I like how it sounds on the radio – it would start out and WWRL was a soul station in New York with incredible DJs – Hank Spann and Enoch Hawthorne Gregory, Jerry Bledsoe – and they had the best voices in the world. (affects voice) “Welcome to WWRL, the Super 16 (because it was 1600 on the AM dial), here’s a song by War, Galaxy.” And it would come in (does the beat and sings), you can google it, limewire it in case you think I’m tripping. This DJ played the same record, but the words never came in. He was like, (does Galaxy beat over and over) and I couldn’t understand why the words didn’t come in. He extended it for about 10 to 12 minutes. This shows you how people didn’t understand anything about DJing, and I’m from New York, because automatically people think cats from New York are just, “Yeah, yeah.” No, we’re country as a motherfucker, man, especially in Long Island, which is only 15 minutes out. I was like: “How is he making the record go like that?” You couldn’t really see two turntables, you had no idea what he was doing behind the DJ stand, he was just moving like from this (sways), side to that side, he had a light in his face. I said: “That record must be about this big (holds arms out / laughter). How can it be? It still hasn’t stopped!” That was my first introduction to the technical aspect of DJing, I totally did not understand how one record could be extended into another.

That bit me. Later on, tapes were going out and people were making pause tapes off the radio stations. One tape that got me was DJ Hollywood’s son, DJ Smalls. The Jacksons – how many of you know Michael Jackson (all hands go up)? How many of you know the Jacksons were produced by Gamble and Huff in ’75/‘77? How many of you know Gamble and Huff? OK, Gamble and Huff were Philadelphia International, which was signed by CBS Records, which really distributed them. They were the in-house producers, they were hot producers, they were producing everyone in the CBS soul tank. They had just picked up the Jacksons from Motown in 1975, but they couldn’t use the 5 because Berry Gordy had sued CBS for use of the name. So the Jacksons without Jermaine were just the Jacksons. On the album Going Places, which had all the Jacksons moving, going forward, Michael included, because Michel Jackson’s a bad-ass motherfucker, I don’t care what anybody says. They had this song called Music’s Taking Over, which starts off with this groove (sings) this is the break part (does the beat). I heard it on the tape, and once again the record was really short, but this groove was going on forever. And I hear Michael Jackson’s voice “Let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s.” Why is Michael doing that shit? “Let’s dance, let’s dance, let’s dance.” So I went to the store to buy the 45 and it started off, went into the song and faded out, because it was a 45. I was like: “This ain’t the shit I heard.” That’s what really bit me. To make a long story short, the technical aspect of what DJs were bringing to the music is what started hip hop; the curiosity of taking something that was given to you as a recording and flipping it, whether it be at a party or a tape. And cassette tapes were new then, they were developed in ’64, but they hit the hood when people could afford to make pause tapes with cheap players. That’s why it’s no secret that the holy trinity of hip hop are Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa, the Master Of Records, and Grandmaster Flash. That’s the holy trinity, it starts right there because their influence with the recordings, taking them and flipping them in their three different circles, went into other areas – and you’ve got to talk about Pete DJ Jones, about Maboya, the big soundsystem DJs who came with the Jamaican aesthetic of two turntables and really manipulating disco/soul records. A lot of people didn’t dig into funk and soul at first, but as disco went forward with more computerised shit, people went back and the guys from the streets started to dig back even more, finding things like James Brown - Sex Machine, and all those obscure records like Apache and Seven Minutes Of Funk.«

RBMA: »I guess at that point you were on Long Island.«

Chuck D: »Yeah, you take the bus to Jamaica and the E&F train to the city. The thing about it is, everyone from the city had moved to Long Island. Nassau County and Suffolk County are the only places in New York where you had people from everywhere in the city. Before that, people in Brooklyn had no reason to go the Bronx, absolutely no reason. You ask a person from the Bronx if they want to Brooklyn, they’d say: “For fucking what?” Harlem in Manhattan was the centre point, so a guy from Brooklyn would go to Manhattan and that would be the end of that, or they would stay in the planet of Brooklyn. Same thing with the Bronx, they’d stay in the Bronx or they would come to Manhattan. You wouldn’t find a person from the Bronx coming to Queens, fuck that. People in Queens would venture into Manhattan and possibly the Bronx. So this migration in the ‘70s was very important for figuring out the gigs and the DJ, the music, all that’s intertwined. RL was the soul station that was playing. They can’t front and say WABC wasn’t an influence – you ask guys like Biz Markie and Bambaataa and they’ll tell you: ”Hell yeah,” that’s where their exposure to people like Steely Dan, Aerosmith and all that came from.«

RBMA: »When did you get exposed to people like Cold Crush tapes, were those passed around at school by kids from the Bronx?«

Chuck D: »No, when I graduated from high school it was ’78 so those tapes weren’t running around like that. They were more like ’78, ’79, ’80; I was in college and in some other thing. When you got into college you quickly severed yourself from all high school activity. When people talk about the parks – “Yeah, I was in the parks” – yeah, because you couldn’t get in the clubs, the whole key was to get in the clubs. And the DJs excelling in the clubs were Eddie Cheeba and DJ Hollywood, they just totally dominated the club scene. I’m 18-years old and I’ll make no secret about it, I’m trying to get into a club that’s 18 and over so I can get with a girl, I ain’t trying to get into no high school shit. I’m trying to get into club, college, and whip out as much ID as I can and these are the DJs that were up in there. You had to dress up, which I didn’t like to do, and the parks jumped off in the summertime, where you could be casual. You can’t be casual outside in January. So my exposure was before Cold Crush, to the DJs who were making tapes, the first street DJs to penetrate to me – other than me just following Hank Shocklee and Spectrum in ’76-77, because they would bring Long Island and Queens with Infinity Machine and King Charles; they had a big terrain and I would follow them.«

RBMA: »So these were the mobile soundsystems in Long Island doing big parties.«

Chuck D: »Not only were they mobile but you had to be mobile to catch them. The thing that’s different from the Bronx or Brooklyn, is that people there wait for things to come to them. In Long Island you had to go and check it, you got in your car and you went to the Bronx and Brooklyn and Queens, you drove there because you wanted to find the jump-off. That was key, these things are underwritten because you talk about the New York metropolitan area, people are surprised that the first rap record – and we’re not going to talk about King Tim and The Fatback Band, who had a recording contract knocking out things for Spring, which I thought was incredible – but guys from Jersey. You must understand the physical logistics of Inglewood New Jersey – it’s right across the bridge, everybody’s got the same radio station. So before tapes, the radio was dominant, the clubs were dominant, but also the parks and the streets were dominant. So the first street cats who really cut across and ventured out who I was impressed by, were Grandmaster Flash and Melle Mel; those guys blew me the fuck away. That was in 1979.«

RBMA: »When did you first encounter them?«

Chuck D: »Live in ’79 because they were able to bleed into what was happening at the club level, and also at the college level.«

RBMA: »Because they had records out at that point?«

Chuck D: »No, this was before that. There’s nothing in hip hop – and I’ve been in front of stadiums of 75.000 people – that can help me explain the atmosphere in hip hop before the first record. From January ’78 to October ’79 when the first record came out, I can’t even explain to you the intensity of rap music in hip hop. It was heading to a place where nobody expected it to go. If you’d told me in 1979 that there would be a rap record, I would’ve said it was inconceivable, impossible, because it was a whole party atmosphere type of thing. When Eddie Cheeba was going around in 1979 – I remember it clearly like it was yesterday – “I’ve got this new record, I’m going to play it for you.” And the place was packed and the name of the song was Good Times by Chic. People were used to dancing faster because Chic had brought you Dance, Dance, Dance and then later Le Freak. They considered that a slowing of the pace, but when they did Good Times it was waaaay down. I found it hard to dance to. “What the fuck, man! Gotta dance slow to this shit.” But really that was New York’s return to funk, which it escaped from around ’73/’74. That was the turning point because cats could rap on that speed and cut to that speed. I remember clearly the summer of 1979, they would have cats coming together, cutting up Good Times with their sneakers. 1979, New York City was rap-fucking-crazy. They used to say: “Get that b-boy shit out of here.” But it was rap crazy. But this was before the records, and everybody had a feeling something was going to happen, but nobody knew exactly what. Eddie Cheeba would go around saying, “Look out y’all.” He broke the records, he didn’t make them. “I’m gonna put rap on a record.” “What the fuck are you talking about, how are you going to put rap on a record?” Then King Tim III came out in July ’79 with Personality Jock, but the Fatback Band had already put out hot funky joints. They were from Brooklyn, they would make songs people would dance to, so when they have King Tim III it was “Whoa!” It sparked something, it was the click in the lightbulb. Then Rapper’s Delight came out in October, that was the dam that burst, it was Good Times, the Firecracker break by Mass Production. It was the two hottest songs on one record with street rap on it; that was the beginning of the dam breaking and people were like: “Whoa, that shit’s a rap recor.” It went into the era of the record and the tapes became less of a force - big, but less of a force. It was about that record. When Rapper’s came out it was 15 minutes long. A lot of you might think that was a long-ass motherfucking record, but the irony is, when it came out, it wasn’t how long it was but how short. Rap was like three hours long and they got it down to 15 minutes. This is what’s not really talked about, this is old head’s shit. I always looked at black music, rap music, urban music as a science, as well as something to just enjoy, because I was a sports fan and anyone who knows about sports knows you can’t be a dumb motherfucker to talk about sports. How many of you here like sports? See, that’s why you’re music people. You go in a sports circle and don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about they’ll tell you to get the fuck out of here. I like people to think in music terms the same way they think about sports.«

RBMA: »So when Rapper’s Delight came out, that’s when you thought you had something to devote your life to. But it wasn’t the music, right?«

Chuck D: »No, I went to college, I got kicked out in my freshman year, I worked at a job, then I went to some other classes. I got into college as a graphic designer. I got a scholarship for architecture at New York Tec. I was really good, too good, but I had no direction. ‘OK, what are you gonna do?’ So when rap records came out, everything clicked for me. ‘Wow, rap records, that means covers, that means graphics.’ I could use my graphics to work in an art department in a record company. So that made me go back to school and finish, because I wanted to work in the art department of a record company, doing covers and stuff. That pushed me through school. I loved the fact you could apply your art to the music. I wasn’t a big graffiti fan. I would be going into work looking at the graffiti thinking half of it is wack, in fact, 90%. The stuff they had back in the day on subways, that was terrible to me, I was about getting graphics to the point. I was a critic and thought I could do better. Just because you’ve got a marker and a spray can, doesn’t mean you’re right to be marking up shit. “This dude should’ve left his marker in his pocket instead of marking up this train, because this shit is wack.” 10% of cats were brilliant, there should’ve been some kind of zone for them. I saw the graphic/music connection, so that’s why I went through college. At college there was a radio station, WBAU, which I went on because I was a big rap fan. I got on the microphone because I thought back in the day 90% of all MCs were terrible and they would be on top of a DJ who was terrible. You’d be trying to get your dance on with a girl. You’d get the courage to ask the girl and then all of a sudden she’d stop and you’d be looking at the DJ, “I don’t think I wanna dance no more”, so you’re mad at the DJ too. He’s terrible and the MC is terrible. I’m like: “Man, you’re fucking my game up.” I got on the mic to rhyme to sit the wack MCs down. If you’re in a long line and you let the first three MCs go and Love Is The Message comes on, all of a sudden, just because someone’s from the Bronx they get on the mic too: “Yeah, I know what this is.” Terrible. Then it was my turn and the line behind me would disappear, because they would be like: “I can’t do that shit.” That was the main reason: to sit the wack MCs down so I could enjoy dancing to the music with some chick.«

RBMA: »Hank Shocklee from the Bomb Squad, and before that Spectrum City, says there was some jam at college and all the MCs were terrible and then you got on the mic to make some announcement, and he went: “That’s the guy.”«

Chuck D: »Back in the day it wasn’t about your rhymes. You had to sound good because most systems were inferior. I would be “One, two, one, two.” Then someone else would come on, “(weak voice) One, two, one, two.” “You ain’t cutting it, sit your ass down.” When I get on the mic I know no one’s going to be louder and all I have to do is be clear, put some words together. Everyone else is sitting down because they’re not loud and clear and rocking the music like that. Later on, when people talked about flows, you’re talking about enhanced systems, studios which master it your way, but when it comes down to it, you’ve either got the pipes or you haven’t. People who sing in front of a hall, you’ll say: “Wow, they’re really cutting through.” Someone who sounded great in the studio, doesn’t sound great because they need help. Melle Mel was the first MC to blow me away because he didn’t need a mic. He could take the mic away (takes mic away), you’d hear him clear, but the next person would need the mic and amps and he’s complaining to the sound person, “Turn me up, turn me up!” Then Melle Mel would grab it and be like (loud voice): “One, two, one, two.” I heard that. So the whole thing about microphone kings, masters of ceremony, was they had to cut through because systems were wack and if they were scratchy and you already had the DJ in the back (makes beat with mouth): “One, two, one, two!” - that’s gonna grab your attention. That’s why when we talk about up-to-date things, we talk about MCs in a whole different way, we’re talking about studio enhanced. One time someone told me a story about the blues, a harmonica guy Sonny Boy Williamson. He was over in the UK and they were asking him: “What do you do to get the microphone that way? What’s the technique? They’re checking out engineers and that technical bullshit. Sonny said: “It’s right here (gestures to mouth).” Something’s you have, something’s you don’t.«

RBMA: »What finally gave you the confidence to make records?«

Chuck D: »It wasn’t a confidence thing, it just had to be worth my time. I loved doing the radio, you don’t have to be seen, just heard, you can be behind the scenes. We made our first record, Check Out The Radio, so we could sell our shows. I was a big fan of Mr Magic, Afrika Islam, the Zulu Beats and the World Famous Supreme Team.«

RBMA: »These are all pioneering radio DJs in New York City.«

Chuck D: »I know I’m talking about a load of stuff before you were born, way back, but it’s very important. If you say you love the music, you’ve got to pick up on some of the reasons why it started in order to be able to innovate and take it to 2012 and 2010. At Red Bull Music Academy, you want to separate yourself from someone else who does what you’re doing just because they like it. Separate yourself from someone who says: “I don’t need no school, I can do what you do.” All this is important, and since I was there and can retain that surrounding, then I have to spread it. What good is an old head like me if I can’t drop some jewels for you to pick up and use yourself?«

RBMA: »Radio was important because it was also the foundation of being part of a community, something beyond music.«

Chuck D: »That’s correct, we talked directly to our community because they weren’t able to see us. That was a beautiful thing about radio back in the days of ‘R&B’, by which I mean Reagan and Bush, so we talked directly to the people in the laundromats and bus stops. When people ask me about rap music today, I tell them the rappers do a load of things, the producers do a load of things, but the radio is terrible. It’s never been worse, they give you nothing, no information and they don’t innovate, no sense of history. What they think is good, they only judge themselves, not by a higher order. The people who are supposed to bring it to the public, they’re no good. Not the rappers, not the producers, although even some of the producers need to know more, because it’s not just about taking the sound, it’s about knowing the dynamics behind the mentality of why it was created in the first place. DJ – (to participant) what’s your name again? – he was finding a Mobb Deep sample on a Stylistics album from about 35 years ago. You have to get into the dynamics of the musicians that made it. Thom Bell was part of the Gamble and Huff team, so he would orchestrate the Stylistics and the Spinners and his use of horns and strings was immaculate, he was a perfectionist. His use of grooves from the Philadelphia Orchestra that Gamble and Huff used, all of this is part of the science of why the music was made the way it was in the first place; its groove, it’s funky and it’s made to extend into a sample or even manipulate. You’ve got to go into the mind of the musician, the goal of what they would try to do. The Stylistics were there to hold you, make you swoon, so you think, ‘This is a love song’, but it’s also there to get you on the floor to sway a certain way or to relate a certain way. That movement is still there in the musicians’ mind and chops. It’s not just about: “I’m gonna snatch a sound and make it the way I want it to make it.” That’s half the answer. But the other half is saying: “Why was it that created in the first place?” That’s why they call Afrika Bambaataa a master of records, Grandmixer D.ST, the master of records, ?uestlove from The Roots, a master of records; not just to understand the record but the musicians and the engineers who made the recordings. You can’t get into the science of some of that hot Atlantic Pretty Purdie, [James] Gadson beats, without understanding Tom Dowd as an engineer, and not just whether he engineered that record or not, but his influence on that sound and other engineers. Or the influence of James Brown or Clyde Stubblefield. What’s the engineering technique, what are the Dave Matthews’ arrangements (not the Dave Matthews Band) which led to the James Brown funk section, but his arrangements on top of Fred Wesley’s. You’ve got to be able to understand this to be able to say: “We’re going to make some more incredible music for 2012, or incredible mixtapes, or whatever.” I don’t think the radio stations and jocks. They don’t have it in them to take it to the next phase, no Isley Brothers pun intended.«

RBMA: »You speak about arrangements and production. What motivated you and Hank and Public Enemy to make the sounds you made, which were very distinct and pretty much unprecedented?«

Chuck D: »We didn’t make the sounds, we wanted to be able to make a new arrangement of the sounds. Because we had a knowledge of the records, we had a respect for the records and the different genres, our thing was trying to make it all work. We didn’t know where r&b was in the mid-‘80s. We thought the worst thing that ever happened to it was the use of synthesizers, or rather when synthesizers started to use the musician. Stevie Wonder would pimp the hell out of a synthesizer, but synthesizers and drummachines started to use the producer. So you would have this corny ass (makes beat with mouth) that we wanted to rebel against. Our whole goal was, “We’re going to destroy the music business concept of music with music.” We wanted to eradicate every bit of smooth r&b that was made off the face of the earth; also English pop. Most music made from 1979 to 1986, except for rap records and a few organic records, most music was terrible, just wack. Our goal was to wipe that shit off the face of the musical map, that was Public Enemy’s goal as sonic assassins.«

RBMA: »By the same token, when Public Enemy came out there was resistance from within hip hop as well. Maybe this is a myth, but you guys performed at Latin Quarter and reputedly Melle Mel and others heckled you.«

Chuck D: »Melle Mel heckled us because he thought we were pat of the contingent that dissed Mr Magic. Scott La Rock and KRS-One were launching into Mr Magic – “You’re gonna respect us” – so our association with Doctor Dre, I mean Andre Brown from Yo MTV, not Dr Dre from the West Coast. Melle Mel was a friend of Magic’s and Melle Mel can be heard on top of the music. So it was, “Get those motherfuckers off the stage.” We’re performing, we’ve got a soundsystem and you can hear this dude in the back. We’re from Long Island, he didn’t know anything about our history, but those were our chops coming through.«

RBMA: »The Latin Quarter was a very, very famous hip hop venue in the ‘80s.«

Chuck D: »We had songs you couldn’t dance to that automatically set off some kind of zone in the typical b-boy that they could not dispute. That was Public Enemy No.1, which was a tape I made for WBAU in ’84 which made Rick Rubin want to sign me in the first place. Our thing was not to make music, it was to make un-music. We knew all the hot records, Run DMC, the kings, which was coming off the back of Grandmaster Flash, so we knew all the records that were out at the time. So I wanted to make something that actually stood out. When I made Public Enemy No.1 at the end of 1984, I was living at the end of Roosevelt, next to a busy street. We would gauge the radio show by how many people wanted to make tapes from it. So when a car goes by you can usually hear a car go (makes booming noise), it could be anything. I used noise because I wanted to be able to take a really good survey. We knew when a car went by playing Public Enemy No.1, that’s how we knew it was hot. And it was hot for two years before it became a record and that’s what made Rick Rubin say: “I want to sign this guy.” Me and Flava were driving vans, delivering furniture. Fred Wesley’s Blow Your Head was always a record I liked - there’s a whole 'nother story behind me getting that record, which involved me going over to some chick’s house and asking her for the record after I didn’t get what I came for (laughs). “OK, baby, whatever, can I have this record?”, and I took the record, I was blown away by it. It was a record that was always played in the roller rink, but the DJs didn’t have enough skill to extend the break, it’s a tough break, it’s (imitates Fred Wesley - Blow Your Head synth intro), and I thought, ‘If someone would keep this shit going’. It wasn’t until you had machines like the emulator and guys like Marley Marl made it hot and happening and later on the Akai, that we were able to extend that song. But the truth is I made the first demo by pausing a cassette, like people made the old pause mixtapes, just by going over and over two tape decks (imitates the beat). There were a couple of glitches because it wasn’t perfect timing, but I could rhyme over it and the rhyme connected the pieces together seamlessly. When we tried to make it in the studio for our first Def Jam release, we were able to make this song and duplicate it. But Hank and I considered it too clean - the breaks in the pause tape gave it that funkiness of feel and direction, that’s what made it a totally different thing. So when we made Public Enemy No.1 it was a 2” tape cut by Steve at the engineer and we made a natural loop around the mic stand going back into the Studer heads, so it had that feel of a band (imitates Public Enemy No.1 intro), so that’s how it was made to capture the feel of the original demo which had a lot of funky feeling and dirt and grime in it. So we realised we were gonna make some noise by bringing some noise and we were going to bring some different records and make some abrasive records. The goal was to make some music that your girlfriend was gonna hate (laughs). That was definitely the goal for me, because my girlfriend, who later became my wife, I know if she doesn’t like it then we’ve got some hot shit here, because she was into Luther Vandross and all that other shit. I’m making some shit that makes you say: “Turn that shit off.”«

RBMA: »Let’s listen to a couple of seconds of that.«

Chuck D: »You can download that original demo on Slamjamz.com, I’ve still got it up there. It’s the original where I say, “I can go solo like a Sugar Ray bolo.” Sugar Ray Leonard was dominating boxing at the time, so when I made the record it was, “I can go solo like a Tyson bolo,” from Sugar Ray to Tyson, from welterweight champ to heavyweight champ. But Chuck is talking about all this and we haven’t got past 1986.«

(music: Public Enemy – Public Enemy No.1)

»(talks over the top of it) The hi-hats I played separately, the beat is enhanced by Eric Sadler in the studio, Flava, the musicians, they added to the sample with the kick behind it, half live, half sampled. The loop is going round a microphone stand to be recorded because there was some off-timing in there. It was hard for a lot of DJs to mix because it wasn’t syncopated correctly. Listen to this – there‘s no timing right there. You can’t go: “one, two, three, four,” if you have to take a tempo of this record, it ain’t arranged other than some weird jazz timing. People got into making structured jazz records, eight bars here, counting four bars. We felt that could lead to burn-out for the audience. You might offer different sounds, but if every song you deliver is three-and-a-half to four minutes, and they begin the same way. People talk about hot 16, but why can’t it be a hot 17 or a hot 13-and-a-half? People are afraid to go outside the structure they’re comfortable with. Our whole thing is, how can we present something that will make you feel uncomfortable? Don’t deal in comfort, and don’t deal with a Mac so close to water, Jeff (laughs / moves water away from the laptop).«

RBMA: »So was that the record Mr Magic smashed on the air?«

Chuck D: »Yeah, Magic smashed it because he thought we were dissing him with Dre and Scott La Rock. Scott La Rock and KRS-One were going after him for some other beef, and they came out to talk to Dre on WBAU and he considered us down with the whole posse, which we were. We had no time to go after Mr Magic like that, but we got dragged into it. When he heard that, he thought Dre was involved in it, which he was. But we weren’t coming after Magic like that. I still feel happy to be associated with the ‘Blastmaster’ KRS-One to this day, so it was pretty good.«

RBMA: »So It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back, often cited as the greatest hip hop album of all time. How do you feel about that?«

Chuck D: »When we first made it, it was after a year of touring and I noticed one thing rap artists were victimised by – slow tempos. They worked well on record, not so good in live performances. When you go into a live arena, people are amped up to see you. That’s why bands usually play their music 5 to 10bpm faster, because everyone’s all amped up. That’s why records stood out more than the band. A perfect example is the Ohio Players. On the record you hear: “(sings in mid-tempo) Skin tight, skin tight.” Then you check them out in concert it’s: “(fast tempo) Skin tight, skin tight.” Damn, slow their ass down! But they’re amped up, bands are amped up. We realised when we went into a performance the crowd was amped up and you can only pitch a record up so much. So we thought we’ll make faster records. It comes out of doing Rebel Without A Pause at 120bpm. Bpms meant a lot to us because we’re DJs and Hank had these digital Panasonic turntables. Bring The Noise was 109bpm, at the end of 1987, for the Less Than Zero soundtrack. That was like going into lightspeed. We had faster songs than that, like It’s Like That, 125bpm, but that was a different double speed. 109 meant: rap on it, take the fast beat, ride it like a saddle and get this crowd throttled up. Right in the middle of the days of crack, we made a fast record for the time. It wouldn’t slow them down, they’d be like: “Yo yo, play that shit again for real.” Cats would be all nervous and fast, but the speed we took it to matched the drug of the time for people who were around the hip hop circle. The songs on It Takes A Nation were 112, 110, 113bpm. Sonically, it said all the things we grew up with in the ‘60s and ‘70s, all the voices from that time that were forgotten in the ‘80s. In the ‘80s, Hank and I were hanging a flyer on a pole of Malcolm X looking out the window with a rifle, defending his house, which is a famous shot later used by KRS-One. Some guy came by and said: “Who’s this Malcolm the Tenth?” Me and Hank said, “Shit, we need to let these people know in the middle of Reagan and Bush where we come from.” That had been forgotten and it was only 10-15 years prior, 20 years prior to be him being killed. That’s what gave the meaning to Public Enemy. So sonically, performance-wise and even rap-wise, Nation Of Millions was the juggernaut that established us. It was something where we said to ourselves: “This is our thing: jack up the noise, rap fast and strong, bring some noise and be powerful with it.” I tell people all the time: “We’re the The Rolling Stones of the rap game.” You might find better flows, more individual achievement, but you won’t find power and speed like PE present it. Some people might say: “Cool, but I don’t want power or speed, I want the smooth funky shit, the lyrics to be hitting tight.” “No, this is power and speed, it’s Metallica and rock ‘n’ roll – get the fuck out off the way, this is gonna run you over.” That’s why for years Public Enemy could go head to head with thrash metal merchants and hold our own, with turntables and then with some instruments - that’s the only thing you can compare it to. It might not be nice, it might not be digestible, but it’s gonna wear the fucking place out. And that’s what established us.«

RBMA: »You guys performed the album in its entirety in concert this last year. How was it?«

Chuck D: »A lot of fun. Those records aren’t easy, like someone standing in one place and singing: “Throw your hands in the air,” and walking side to side. If you don’t prepare to do those records then those records will do you. Louder Than A Bomb is no joke. It’s going on, “This style seems wild.” Public Enemy isn’t one of those things where you can just stand there looking at the crowd, you’ve got to get it moving. It’s like punk, that’s one of the things that separated us from the pack. There’s only one MC, to my mind, who could do power and speed, because his music was jacked up and he could dance, do it all at the same time – Big Daddy Kane. I tell people all the time: “If you want to sit and smoke weed, this ain’t your thing.” Later on when Dre did The Chronic with Snoop Doggy Dogg he developed a whole different thing, slowed it down, weed was the thing in rap music. If you did something 112bpm in ’94, people would be like: “Oh my god, get that shit out of there.” I understood it, I just didn’t feel it as much as when we did it.«

RBMA: »I know you’re such a fan of hip hop, do you concur that it’s the greatest hip hop album of all time? There have been panels about it, there have been dissertations written about it, etc., etc.«

Chuck D: »I believe if you saw it performed, you’d say: “Damn!” When we made it there weren’t that many rap albums out, maybe 20. To me the greatest rap album that signified rap as an album format in the marketplace was Run DMC’s Raising Hell. That was power, and Run DMC being able to handle a stadium. When we made Takes A Nation, we knew what we were not going to make. I was setting out to make the What’s Going On of rap music then. It has a lot of things going on: it had the sonic changes, it was the first album that said we’re not going from track-to-track - before De La Soul put skits in there, it was the first album that broke the monotony of going track-to-track - it had the meaning of voices, the arrangement of samples. It was the first album unto itself, the juxtaposition so it plays like a radio show. We wanted to make it exactly 60 minutes, so it’s an hour of introduction into the world of 1988. Calling it the greatest hip hop album of all time is someone else’s call, but I know if someone was to see it performed, they would understand. They would have to see it, feel it, take it in and then say: “OK, watch someone else do an album.” That was a thing I was critical of when I first heard the Don’t Look Back concerts, when the promoter would tell the performer: “Do the album, don’t do anything else.” I thought that sounds like a fan’s dream, it doesn’t sound like an artist’s dream, but when we did it, and played along with the Bomb Squad, Hank and Keith Shocklee, it was a treat and a challenge. We stepped up to the challenge. We’re going to play it all year long, we’re touring in Germany, Greece, doing some more shows in the UK, then capping off the tour in Australia. That will be tours number 63 and 64 for Public Enemy. It’s fun to do, because we say we’ll do the album, then we’ll do some other shit, which is another hour of show time. It’s fun. What wouldn’t be fun getting down with Flava Flav? He’s the greatest hype man because he invented the role, he brought so much to the game. Young cats just think, ‘He’s a TV personality, what does he do?’ They asked what Flava Flav did from the minute we signed and introduced him to Rick, and said: “You’ve got to sign him too,” he said: “What does he do?” “We don’t fucking know but you’ve got to take him.” He’s had many imitators, never a duplicator, there’s nothing like him. What he brings to the table, what Griff has brought to the table, what Terminator and now DJ Lord brings, it’s a fun thing to get down with, like being in U2 or something.«

RBMA: »I want to ask, when you and Flav moved furniture for your dad’s business and imagined that you and Flav did a TV show together.«

Chuck D: »That would be fun, but that was just work. He had to work, I had to work. Looking back, people say: “Would you like to do a TV show?” But I’m the kind of person who’s: “Get that camera away from my house, you’ve got five seconds.” I don’t like being photographed, I never liked doing videos, I’m different when it comes down to that. But Flava is made for camera, you can’t take your eyes off him. No matter what he does on TV, he’s going to obliterate everything else. If he talks science or foolishness - and he does a blend of both - you can’t change the dial because you’re just: “What the fuck is going on with this guy?”«

RBMA: »One of your favourite quotes is: “Hip hop is serving as CNN for black communities.” What is serving that purpose now if not hip hop?«

Chuck D: »Hip hop is a worldwide cultural religion, simple as that. It’s in 150 countries and I think the biggest misnomer about hip hop is that people talk about hip hop like it has to have a New York state of mind. That’s been over since the ‘80s. People started asking if it’s a global scene in 1999. The first statement on Nation Of Millions is: “Good evening London.” We were telling the US then: “This is already happening in London, so if you aren’t up on hip hop and this is already happening in London, then New York, Philly, you better get up on it. We’re letting you know this is how much we’ve got going on. This is no bullshit.” It was sort of like introducing the first live concert element to hip hop. People can say: “OK, you guys are making up your own world, fuck the bpms, all that crazy noise, you’re making up your own shit, you’re believing your own hype.” Nope, this is London (imitates cheering crowd): “I’d like to hear that from the people up top, check this out.” We’re fans of music, like when Earth Wind & Fire came out with Gratitude, when Emotion came out and you hear Earth Wind & Fire live, it boosted their concerts, because you had to become part of what the fuck was going on. Live, as far as ‘70s bands are concerned, they just dominated. So, OK, say what you want, but this crowd is bananas and you’re not used to hearing that in hip hop, maybe in a club, but not in a stadium or enormous building.«

RBMA: »I asked you about this yesterday, but PE were always the biggest champions of hip hop, always fighting for it because it was such an underdog culture. I remember seeing an interview with you when you were very proud because hip hop had its own section in the record store. Now, obviously, hip hop has become mainstream.«

Chuck D: »Hip hop is bigger than the record store now.«

RBMA: »Do you feel as though hip hop has won that war, and at what cost?«

Chuck D: »Hip hop hasn’t won any war because if you talk about it from a United Sates state of mind, people don’t realise that they fell of a bit, politically. It’s like Michael Jordan in the 20th century. “Oh my God, you won world wars, you’re post- Teddy Roosevelt, beating everybody with your big-ass stick and you’re swinging it like ‘What what!’” The US must realise it has to work hard to be one of the top 10, not that it dominates over the whole space. That has trickled down into all culture. Look at basketball: started by a Canadian in the University of Massachusetts to teach the sport to Americans, then it’s dominated by Jewish and white Americans, then black Americans dominated it. And it had its time, just like boxing – all the best boxers are coming from Lithuania, the Ukraine, because, “(affects East European accent) I come from nothing, I’ll kill you. I knock you the fuck out, I come from nothing.” So boxing has a different zone now. United States has been full of its own hype for so long, but if you took the four elements and had an Olympics, America wouldn’t get the gold, silver or bronze in graffiti, in breakdancing – although it’s coming up a little bit – turntablism, not winning the gold, silver or bronze for the last four years. So that’s three of the four elements. Then you have MCing. Now MCing is all subjective. I explain to people in the US when they want to watch BET, or The Basement, formerly Rap City, or watch hip hop from a United States state of mind, hip hop is all over the planet, cats can spit three languages, sometimes in the same verse. That’s super rapping. Now you tell that to the average American, they’ll say: “That don’t mean shit, because I’m an American and I’m fucking great because I am.” Same thing they did in basketball: “We’re the fucking NBA, we’re great because we’ve got marketing and contracts and we’re rich.” You better work at that shit if you want to get the gold again. You better work at the fundamentals and throw all that ego shit out. Hip hop in the United States has been in the lazy zone for so long, it thinks it can win because the record company says so. Or you think you’ve got a large demographic, you’re from New York, you can talk like this, and swing like that and automatically you’re going to win. You could’ve won in the 20th century, but 21st century is a different way to win. If you want to characterise it as winning or losing, you have to figure out what’s the global atmosphere of hip hop, what’s the global condition of people saying: “We have to live here together and share.” Culture is the thing that brings human beings together for our similarities, not for our differences. Governments like to categorise, put people in groupings so they can take advantage of us. That’s why when a government says it’s in charge of culture, you’ve got to watch out for that shit. Culture and governments are diametrically opposed. Governments are the cancers of civilisation, all governments, fuck a government. “What are you gonna do, Chuck? You need governments to keep people in check.” Well, that’s governments’ fucking business. The one thing that’s derogatory to human beings is that you need a passport to travel to the place that god gave everybody. If we don’t fall in line with the planet and take care of the species…if the animals had a language they’d be talking crazy right now. They’d be saying: “You human beings are fucking this planet up. What’s going on with y’all?” Anyone hear the story about the penguins who had to get some help going back home because the atmospheric conditions have been altered by the greed of humans and the audacity of our stupidity?

Hip hop has this organic sense of trying to culturally bring us together and try to figure it out. Beyond hip hop as a term, it’s the beauty of culture and the beauty of music and art and expression to say we’ve got to share this thing. Americans have watched hip hop through the portal of corporations and accepted the cycle of greed. So when you see hip hop in the States, it’s not the ability of the MC but the size of his watch that makes people go: “Oh my god, look at that watch! Did you see that fur helicopter? Oh shit!” It’s bringing the awe out of an audience in a manner that’s got nothing to do with cultural expression, while the rest of the world realises it has to be able to at least exude some of those qualities. It has to be within me, it can’t come from the outside of me. You go to Brazil, you can’t be coming out of the favelas packed with diamonds and shit; cats would be like: “We’re robbing this motherfucker.” You’ve got to represent the people and global hip hop has stuck to this fundamental over the last 30 years. I’m not saying it’s been a solid connection, of course it might be shaky sometimes. Someone coming from Spain or Italy might look at a video screen and be like: “Look at this cat, he’s riding around and he’s got this big house, he’s got all the women.” The women never MC, there always just there, like there are no women in hip hop, which has also hurt hip hop. Women are the underdogs of hip hop. The biggest vacancy is the lack of cohesiveness. Women crews: you could name five or six of them in the ‘80s. But if I asked you to name the women crews, meaning the producers, engineers, remixers, DJs, MCs, the record company owners, you know, women in a collective, it’s far and few. Even males, the males are not groups anymore. The absence of collectives and groups is one of the biggest problems right now. If you have a group, it’s going to make any individual think, ‘I can take this solo, but I can’t do what this group is doing’. I have this all-women autonomous group on my label called Crew Grrl Order and I’m trying to get behind them without being this male on top of them. They’ve got it mapped out for themselves. I’m just trying to fight through all the testosterone to help them make their statement and do their music and to come in a hip hop state of mind. These are some of the things that are missing in American hip hop. America has been taught to be arrogant to the rest of the world, to stick their heads above everyone else and say: “We’re always better because we’re American,” which comes from their British state of mind. The last eight years of son of a Bush has signified the ugly side of America. Once, black people had this ghetto card from the US because we signified people going through that struggle. “Oh yeah, black people from America, you were slaves there, we accept you because we understand where you’re coming from.” But they’ve co-opted this imagery so you have the black American seeming like he’s the arrogant American as well. That whole ghetto card has disappeared. You can’t just say: “I’m black, I’m from America.” “Oh yeah, you show off, you throw money at the camera.” Because they’ve seen the videos from the ‘90s when they were throwing money, which ain’t worth the paper it’s printed on right now, because it’s all collapsing. When it collapses, it comes down to peoples’ insides instead of their outsides. That’s my belief.«

RBMA: »Just to play devil’s advocate for a quick second: is there something wrong with aspriational motivation?«

Chuck D: »There’s nothing wrong with aspirational motivation as long as you have reality glued into it and as long as you can spread it. If you spread the fantasy without answers for the reality, then you’re bound to have side effects. The side effects we’re witnessing now, there aren’t enough therapists for. There aren’t enough therapists, but there’s a growing prison-industrial system which houses more people than any other country on the planet. They don’t brag about that. When you talk about the percentage of people in the prison-industrial complex, black people make up 12.5% of the population, but they’re 50% of the prison population. Why isn’t that a story in the human rights crusades that America claims they’re at the forefront of? OK, we want to bring people to aspiration, but do we want them to aspire to greed, rather than just being able to handle yourself? Maybe that’s hip hop’s motive, maybe it should be. But you just asked me about when hip hop was the underdog, when we were broke in the Reagan and Bush era.«

RBMA: »It was the underdog, but if you look a the Eric B & Rakim album cover, they’re very proud of their…«

Chuck D: »Fake gold. That real big thick gold chain, but real, real, light. They were aspiring, but when we look at it were they really paid in full? No, it was a nice thought. Everyone can wish. When they say Jay-Z is worth $300m I don’t know what that means or where it comes from, if it’s a whipping of mass distraction. What does that do when someone is trying to learn their craft? “Wow, I’m gonna be an MC because Jay-Z’s got $300m and Beyoncé.” If you don’t get Beyoncé and the $300m, are you still going to learn the craft, to make that feed your soul? And if a person says “no”, then OK, I can accept that. You’ve got to do something, either you’re awake or you’re asleep. The beautiful thing about art is that it enhances you and fills your time. If everyone here says “fuck that”, what are you going to fill your time with? Are you a creator or a consumer? How many of you have friends who cannot get away from the Playstation and are lost in the game instead of designing one? That’s a reality, too, you can get lost in your zone, you don’t have to be a productive person. You can get lost in your zone and that’s cool, too, I guess. But the beauty of hip hop comes from looking inside yourself and at the terrain and coming up with something you think is brilliant, and trying to push that into the forefront to entertain and inform people. Bottom line, people at the end of the week, if they work hard – this place used to be a textile plant. Do you think of that, how 20 years back inside these walls they were working their ass off for eight hours a day, punching the clock? – at the end of those weeks people flocked to something that was better, that was art, that was music. There will always be room for people to say: “I want to release myself from everyday work and enjoy myself.”

Everyone in this room has the ability and the love to create something that gives others a breath of fresh air. That’s the beauty of it, the release. Pull out the stops, your kid days are over, you’re not 14-years old with a thumb in your mouth or a lollipop. It’s time to be grown, which means what? You’ve got an apartment, gotta pay rent. You still live with your mum? How long are you gonna do that? You’ve got a girl, might have a baby. Who’s gonna take care of the baby? “Oh, I was out there skateboarding, I broke my leg.” Got insurance? Mum and dad, they passed away, who’s going to bury them? You get an introduction into adult life that might not cater to your tastes, but somebody’s got to do it. Welcome to adulthood, so you can be an adult, but you’re also able to give people a break. This is the advantage we have as producers, DJs, engineers, MCs. Because a lot of people don’t have your abilities or your flexibility, a lot don’t have your insight. So always keep the music with you, because people will need it more than ever, this year, next year, years to come. This isn’t a thing to give up because you can’t make a living, just figure out how to parlay the tools: work in a textile place, but still do your music. The minute the music gives you the answers of where you spend your time – “Oh, I’ve got a chance to work in this club, and I get to pay some of my bills” - you’ll see it, instead of saying: “I’ll just not work and I’ll wait for the music to pay me.” April 1, 1987, our first tour with the Beastie Boys, I worked at a job until that Friday, I wasn’t leaving my fucking job until I’d seen a clear answer, that I could make a living and support my family doing rap. And I’d already made a record. I wrote Yo, Bum Rush The Show while I was driving and working. I wasn’t waiting for music to pay me, I better see it work. When I could see a little bit I put in my resignation, worked until the Friday and was on tour Monday. I had two days from going to a job to my own business. There are only three options: you have a job, you have a business or you ain’t got no job. The only other option is death. I was a grown person when I made my first record and it had to be serious to me. For me to do music full time I had to see it. Last day of work, March 1987; my first day of business, April 1, 1987. I’m not making kid-ass moves, I looked at with a realistic approach. I was going to do music anyway, but I was going to do it in my time around my life as an adult. That’s my story. Everybody here over 16? Everybody over 18? I don’t have to tell you where you are in your life as adults.«

(applause)

»I know I might have been running my mouth, and it’s 90º.«

RBMA: »Maybe some questions.«

Chuck D: »Questions are good. And tell me where you’re from and your name. The Red Bull Music Academy is one of the wonders of the musical world and you should realise that.«

Participant:My name is Michael and I’m from Tel Aviv, I’m a hip hop producer and MC. If Obama is elected in November, how will it affect the world of hip hop?

Chuck D: »Just him running changes the scape of how we think, but that’s just how we think. How do we live and how do we act? Let’s break this down. As a black man, I’ve never seen anything like this, but history tells me if he gets in, day two, be ready to work and to understand that the good and the bad is going to happen, with people looking at it the wrong way. Although I’ll vote for Barack Obama, I know there are things he’s going to do as president of the United States that I won’t agree with. People say: “He’s the president, what’s he going to do for black people?” No, he’s the president of the United States, so for black people as a collective, because we’re judged by our characteristics rather than our character, to be able to influence a decision that will help us as a people at the bottom of the pit in America for a lot of different things – education, health, all that - that must come up as a collective because we still live collectively in our neighbourhoods. Barack Obama is a big opportunity for the planet. Number one, you all know it’s the biggest reality show in the world. Everyone’s looking at us right now. Coming from George Bush to this, how do we operate knowing what’s going to come out of the big bear? I can’t tell you what’s going to happen in the next 24 days. If John McCain gets in, you know the rest of the planet is going to be, “oh shit!”, because he talks foreign conflict rather than foreign policy. Number two, I don’t think he’ll be in the job for long. His first day will be April, then by June he’ll be thinking, ‘Man, I’m 73, this is a crazy job, I introduce the word to the next president, Mrs Sarah Palin.” That’s the reality. She’s like, “Fuck that! Bomb (pushes button).” So Barack Obama is an opportunity for the United States to adjust its image for the rest of the planet, to say we’ll find ways to fit in instead of dominating and beating your ass. I can’t say what’s going to happen, I always consider myself a citizen of the planet instead of the United States and I think this global picture has to be looked at for our existence. They’re saying there won’t be any ice in the Arctic next summer. What does that tell you? Do you know what that means? That means if there’s war in the Middle East over a whole bunch of resources, underneath that Arctic ice is the oil of the future. The oil of now is oil. Already they call the G8 the G7 because Putin’s Russia is relegating. They’re up in the Arctic with Canada, with the US on Canada’s back saying: “Get out of the way.” We plan to go into the Arctic to get that oil. Then the oil of the future is water. Canada’s right up in there and the United Sates’ relationship with Canada will change, so all this for greed. Then you’ve got the economic system shutting down all over the place.

Some people ask if artists should speak to this. Yes, we’re in the days of myspace pages, facebook, all the social networks for presenting your music. Youtube is a fantastic medium. I never understood, if we’re in the audiovisual age… (to participants) How many of you make your own videos? Making music has become easy, shooting and cutting video is a bitch. To put yourself above everyone else, how can you say you’re in the music business when you’re denying the audiovisual dominance of music? Music is seen as much as it’s heard for the last 10 years, so you better get into, “Well, I did this track.” So where’s the video? “We don’t do videos.” You better get into it. Let me take this out (removes camera from bag). I want you all to say, “What’s up Chuck?” This is my little flip-cam, real simple, USB, goes right into a Mac or PC. First of all say: “What’s up, Chuck?” (takes picture / audience respond / films himself) I’m at Red Bull, I’m one of the keynotes, this is the future of the music world and they are definitely doing it right now on tours rhymes and life. This is Chuck D. (addresses audience) You better be multimedia, not just on your own station network. Making beats and making music, cats have been doing that for 20 years. How many MCs have we got out there? One, two, three, if you’re making eight tracks for your album – you’ve gotta get out of the old idea. “Yo, I’m making an album.” How many tracks would you put on an album?«

Participant: »There were 17 tracks on my last album.«

Chuck D: »So you’re making an album for 1992. Ask yourself why there were that many tracks in the first place. Because there was an appetite.«

RBMA: »The format could only sustain a certain amount.«

Chuck D: »Right, but also you were being released once every two years and the appetite for rap music was (nods). There was more appetite than material, that’s why we released 16 tracks on Nation, because the appetite for it was there. Who said the album had to have 12, 13, 14 tracks anyway? It was the record contract that specified you had to produce 12 sides, that’s 12 tracks. That was in the ‘80s; then the CDs took over in the ‘90s, that’s why people put all their songs on an album. But in the ‘60s you had albums that had how many cuts on it? Isaac Hayes - Hot Buttered Soul, how many tracks on it?«

Participant: »Four.«

Chuck D: »The Doors, how many tracks? Some of them had six. But in the ‘60s they’d release three albums in a year, because that was the marketplace coming into the birth of albums and the album-oriented marketplace had started to accept that. We’re in a different marketplace now than the ‘90s, so 17 tracks in the digital world can be three albums. Who's to say one album can’t be seven tracks, one six and the other one four. You put your artwork and concept behind it and you can make a digital release of it. Of course, you might have to put 17 tracks on a CD if you’re making one, if you believe the CD is the format of the future. The CD is the format of now, but blank CDs are the ones that sell most. So get yourself out of the ‘90s way of thinking and develop your own way. Another thing, if you do a four- or five-track album you should do a video for every single track. What’s your standard of video? Doesn’t have to be what you see on television. It could be that you’ve got a bunch of stills going on and Mac has a programme that lets you do that, but you’ve got to present your music visually and aurally. When I was growing up you heard the music, then you saw it: Soul Train, American Bandstand, Ed Sullivan. Seeing it reminded people of the audio presentation because people used their imaginations more. Or maybe you heard it in the club and your experience goes back to going to get that record because you had a great time in the club. But in the audiovisual age people see music first, so when they hear music on the radio it reminds them of what they saw first. Imaginations work in a whole different way. I wouldn’t say it’s better or worse, just different. So when it comes to making your music, you have to get into a different state of mind and start cutting vision and audio. You’ve got to be equally skilled or find a partner. If you can’t do it yourself, you’ve either got to pay for that service or collaborate with someone who can do what you can’t. That’s why you have a team. With the Bomb Squad we had four or five individuals who were skilled in different areas and came together as a team. One person cannot do it alone. In the audiovisual age you should be a person who can do it all, but you’re not going to be the person who can do it all the best, although that’s a good way to look at your future. What separates you at Red Bull Academy from someone who just happens to be making beats in their crib and says: “I don’t need no school,” is your collective study of this - that’s making a calculated move for where you should be in the future. That’s a skill. When I say, “How many people make music?”, a lot of hands went up. When I said: “How many make video?”, only a couple. You know why? Because that’s a hard-ass motherfucking thing; if it ain’t hard, then it should be. Master it, figure it out, learn how to cut edit pro, take simple devices, this is a simple device, only about $100, so that’s about €3 (laughter). It’s not how much you have, it’s what you’re willing to take on up here. I got my degree in design in 1984; by 1990 everything I learnt was obsolete because I learnt how to do it by hand, cutting and pasting. 1990 was the beginning of computer graphics, I had to learn Photoshop in Adobe Illustrator in the late ‘90s and it bled my fucking brain. One of my buddies, the producer Carl Jason, he was in the studio in the compound in Long Island, he was learning Cubase, I was learning Photoshop, we’d be taking a lunch break going: “(head in hands) This is fucking killing me.” But when I got over the hump, I was “Yes!”. I don’t have to wait for a person and try to guide that person. I know it. The advantage you guys have is that you’re in a collective, you can learn under the system but you can buddy up under the ropes. Music is still renegade and organised.«

RBMA: »Who else has a question?«

Participant:
Chuck D: »Perth, the most isolated city in the world.«

Participant: »That’s right. I make hip hop beats. Fight The Power is everyone’s favourite video clip. What was that day like and what was it like working with Spike Lee? Because it’s a hype video.«

Chuck D: »I can’t take credit for that because Spike Lee was an innovative renegade filmmaker who dared to do in film like we dared to do in music. He took Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, took the movie industry there, had the momentum of making a statement in a very politically charged New York at the time, made the statement worldwide in Do The Right Thing. He made Fight The Power what it was. He shot it first in film clips, then followed it up with the Public Enemy version which he extended. It was signifying that hip hop was visual as well as audible. It wasn’t a song that was head and shoulders above what we did, but as far as Fight The Power, its meaning, the film, Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, Spike Lee, New York City, making a statement at that time, its meaning is well beyond the sonics. And when we performed it live we always stepped up to the plate. Half of a song, beyond the lyrics and the sonics is the spiritual meaning behind it. You can have lyrics that say one thing, but the meaning is always something else. I always tell MCs not to stay locked into what you think something is, gravitate into other spaces, because that record is going to be there for the rest of time. When you come back to it, you’ve got to feel it came from you. We can all make excuses. There are songs I’ve made that I’m like: “Yeah, that’s hot at that particular time.” Do you feel great about it? No, but this is the meaning of it. But you want to make most of the songs in your career represent where you’re going to be in your life because it’s an extension of you and your soul. That’s Fight The Power. It was a collaborative effort, it took a lot of help. Everything I’ve done in my career has been a collaborative effort, even this conversation with Chairman Mao.«

RBMA: »Pass the mic along to the next person.«

Participant: »Hello, I’m, Sarah from London. You said the current state of hip hop is all about showing off. Is there any new hip hop you’re feeling at the moment?«

Chuck D: »Here’s another thing that doesn’t line up with new questions, or rather old questions about new ways of taking on music. iPod comes out and you can put 10.000 songs on the iPod. Someone says: “What are you listening to at the moment?” Fuck, there’s 10.000 songs on my iPod. If I give you a top 20, do I give you the top 20 of the last five minutes or the last month? But there’s a lot to choose from. To answer your question, I think there are a lot of acts who don’t get great exposure. Myspace has been a great vehicle and moving into iLike will be a great vehicle for people who don’t have record company representation. I like NY Oil, because he’s saying things I’m familiar with at my age and stage. The Roots are the epitome, they’re kicking into the second phase of their career, which speaks to me even more. ?uestlove is going into that second zone of confidence as a bandleader with hip hop sensibilities and futuristic thoughts and a passion for the past and a legacy. He’s going to a place that few people are venturing into. The Crew Grrl Order, being one of the few autonomous female situations, I’m getting behind them this year because I think they speak to the unspoken and the voiceless. If you say women in hip hop, that’s the underdog. Another cat who’s coming out, “Yo, I’ve got it rough today, I’m 18, I can’t figure out where it’s at.” I understand, but a lot of MCs don’t listen to each other, so when they come along and say: “Yo, I’ve got this shit you’ve never heard about, son, for real,” it’s the reason why you’ve got 655.346 MCs saying exactly the same thing, with exactly the same type of beats, exactly the same beats per minute, exactly the same beginning and ending, with eight bars or 16 bars, four choruses, one break. Not to say it’s bad, there’s just a lot of similarity, so when I’m listening to different things, an all-female group is going to spark me; a cat like NY Oil who reinvents himself is going to spark me; a group like the Roots, who take it from a band to a hip hop aesthetic with Black Thought riding these different wave, it’s going to spark me. But then, Big Joe Turner is turning me out too for some reason. Music from the past is just as unknown to me as music from the future. Now that you can have it on a device and say: “Let me hear some James Moody and let me hear some Flowbots,” the fact you can go from James Moody to the Flowbots and let it fit into your day, is a good thing, it widens your terrain. I tell people in London, there’s a lot of MCs coming out in London that need to relate to their surroundings, whether it’s Sway or Dizzee Rascal, I would tell them: “Don’t get strung onto New York, speak from a global standpoint and you’ll swing into the Unites States one way or another.” Also, the US is not New York and LA. It’s 2.000 by 3.000 square miles on the lower 48, which most Americans don’t understand. Americans are poor in history and geography. One of the biggest things that shocked Americans was the number of black people televised in New Orleans with Katrina. White people in Wisconsin were saying: “I never knew there were so many black people in New Orleans.” That’s because you don’t know your history and geography. History will tell you it’s a slave port, geography will tell you it channelled people and goods up the Mississippi, which goes from New Orleans up to Minneapolis, where a bridge collapsed last year. You’ve got to keep dumbassification in order to maintain the whippings of mass distraction to get them to come out and vote for John McCain and (laughs)) Sarah Palin. You’ve got to keep the masses dumb. You know what they say, take the masses and just move the ‘m’ over, consider that the crowd so you can pimp them out and control them. We hope music and culture goes the opposite way to that.«

RBMA: »Can you foresee the Public Enemy, KRS-One era – which was a very specific time and place - happening again?«

Chuck D: »Things like that are happening right now. We’re in a time we’ve never experienced, but is there time for people to corral and navigate that to a popular understanding? Is it too big for people to project it as it was back then?«

RBMA: »Not that it doesn’t exist, but as the dominant cultural force like it was back then?«

Chuck D: »I think the technology is dominant, the hardware, not the software. Serato’s the revolution, iPods have been a revolution, before that it was Napster. The software that rides it is widespread, it’s vast. So I think the revolution will come to explain all these big bangs all around the scape. The information to the masses has to be better, we’re having all kinds of artistic explosions and vocal forwardness. You must agree with me, radio tells you nothing, although there have been small steps in national satellite and an aspect in digital radio. Even what you were doing as a writer and with Ego Trip and the Book Of Rap Lists, you don’t see a parallel component explaining to the masses what this shit is about. That’s a big problem, it’s like watching sports with no broadcasting and no statistics. Sport is all about dates, history, where it’s at now and in the future, stats every day, abilities weighed, judgement, comparative and analysis and non-stop sportscasting. In the US they have Sports Centre, which shows the same one-hour show six times in the morning before they get into the news of the day. That means they’re giving you the chance not to be stupid, they can’t make shit up. We have nothing going into the same detail as that, or taking it in at Red Bull. That’s a big thing that’s missing right now. The more you know about the music the more you find yourself alone. Go up to some old lady, “Oh my son’s a DJ. What do you do? You make beats? He makes beats. And he’s 12 (laughs).” “Yes ma’am.”«

Participant: »My name is Veni and I’m from Brooklyn, New York., and I am a producer, representing that underrepresented section in hip hop. First I want to say kudos for Public Enemy for adding such a political twist, something we’re missing right now. I grew up on hip hop, and was able to see the fun part and the political part and could understand how important it was as life and a culture. When I do my live show I try to incorporate more political aspects because I realise how important it is to the culture, even though in the States it’s become laughable. I believe it’s become a big corporate entity and ego and greed is a huge problem. There was a time when there were many political hip hop groups and then suddenly you didn’t hear much about them, or other political groups. Do you think it was a matter of taste in the audience or was it a strategic move within the industry to take away a powerful voice to keep people stupid. Or was it just focussing on whatever was making the money? Was it something that just happened, or was it a strategic move? I do believe everything, like the mass media and the education system, everything in the States is made to make us ‘sheeple’. «

Chuck D: »All of the above is accurate to a point, and it’s hard to discuss with the masses because it’s very detailed and intricate and very easy for someone to put up a red flag and call it a conspiracy theory. “Oh, so you think you know what’s going on?” Make no mistake, corporations are in business to make money for themselves. They’re not talking about the quality of anything as opposed to the quantity. Quantity rules the roost, especially in the major corporations at this time, where they actually have musical chairs for the people at the top. So they don’t worry about things long term, because they don’t even know when their term as president of Sony, or this record company underneath the majors, will end. So their whole job is to do numbers. So in the ‘80s, you got $10.000, you can make a million off that, but if you don’t understand that it’s a business where you’ve got to watch out for diminishing returns, then you can fall into a situation of not paying attention to the quality that got people listening in the first place. That’s what happened to hip hop. More of it’s going to come, knowing you can put $10.000 in to make a million, which is the story of Ruthless Records. Then you get the situation where you put one million to make $10.000, which is where it’s at now. It’s totally reversed, so it’s no longer based on quantity. I’ve always thought if the community doesn’t support you, then the [record company] can’t place you in situations where they’re going to just place you in a record store and sell you. Once you’re in the position of selling, then you fall victim to all those capitalistic rules that put you in the same position as mufflers. “We’ve got to move these mufflers, these loafes of bread, these CDs, this music.” Once you’re in that model, then the spiritual aspect of what you do goes out the window. If you don’t sell these units then you’re out of there.«

Participant: »People can’t support it if they don’t know it exists.«

Chuck D: »I don’t understand.«

Participant: »You say if the audience isn’t there, if the music you’re delivering isn’t heard. It’s different now, because the business model is independent.«

Chuck D: »Because it’s never been supported by education. Education supports books. When you were in the 7th, 8th, 9th grade, and ask: “Why am I reading Huck Finn? Why did the school buy 336.000 books? Where does it go to and why does it come from our budget? And why hasn’t black music been a part of the curriculum ever?” Black kids are part of the American system, so American culture would be subsidised, whoever that might go to. So you could read Ethan Frome or even Charles Dickens, Great Expectations. They’ve got to buy the books for you to read. All the music we’ve had, black music, black people being involved because all those other portals were shut to us, all you’ve got to do to study our history is study our music. You can go back to the first recording, Thomas Edison, 1877, singing Mary Had A Little Lamb, and not far from there are black people singing spirituals or whatever, music that will tell you about that time, be it ragtime, blues, whatever. You get this history by default. You get all the images of how you’ve got to learn what you need to learn. But if you don’t include it in the education system, you as a person bringing across something good for people, well, it’s not included in education, so it ain’t in the community.

So you’ve got to sell yourself next to a bottle of vodka. Yo, from 9.00 until 3.00 in the morning, this is our time, and you’ve got to sell your orange juice in a bottle of vodka time. And at a party, the orange juice is only going to be used as a mixture. So the art is not supported by the community, by the education system, so it’s levied into companies and [is dependent on them and] how they deliver art. And that’s an unfair comparison. It’s like offering a little kid a choice between Mary Had A Little Lamb and Playboy (laughs). It’s the lowest hanging fruit, and it’s easy to sell nigger in America, because America’s built on the treatment of black people as nigger. So it’s more familiar than the upward understanding of where we are in the world, because it’s been saturated inside America. And whenever you come up with something that speaks for blacks, education, women, human beings, it’s going against the grain, because it has to be sold. Really, it should be given away. If your music is upwardly favourable (if that’s the right term), then the school system should buy one million CDs in Brooklyn and subsidise it so you don’t have to sell it in HMV. “Oh, I’ve got to get this airplay so the community can hear I’ve got something good.” Why’s the community going to get something bad? Because on those airwaves, this is what moves, the one that’s most familiar. That’s the one that’s going to get picked up. People say: “Why do they have these chicks in the video, why’s it derogatory, why are they showing this?” Who can’t sell sex to a 12-year old kid? Who can’t sell the promise of a club to an 11-year-old? They can’t get in there, but ask if they know about it and they’ll say: “Hell; yeah, I know about the club, I know about 50 Cent, I know about Fiddy.” They’re six or seven years from getting in there but they can tell you all about it. You ask them now about a strip club and they can tell you about it, even though they’ve never been in one. They can’t wait to get in one, because they’ve heard what it’s like. These are the things that sell because it’s the lowest hanging fruit. It’s where young people want to have that vice sign and think they’re finding their own identity. The other side has to be given to them. Ask a kid if he wants vegetables or ice cream. Ask a kid. “No, I’ll take the asparagus, I’ll take the broccoli.” (laughs) That’s the same thing that’s happening in music and culture.

Culture, if it’s positive, has to be supported but the community is already spending its money on education. The structure in America doesn’t consider black music as part of the education system, because it doesn’t speak to everybody. That’s crazy, because black music has spoken to everybody across the world. I go across the world and they know everything I’ve been doing, go back to my own block and they don’t know who I am but an old man. The reason it works in Europe and other places is because of the contrast, the curiosity. Nightlife was triggered by being broader than just, say, Germany only having German musicians. No, this comes from the black musicians who started coming over after World War I, playing and bringing some music. “Oh, that’s what you call jazz.” Because culture brings people together automatically, there’s something about the bite you can’t fight. You need to be supported by a system that has its doors open universally. Corporations are there to sell you and they’ve treated music like rims or hubcaps or sandwiches. Right now people feel they can get their sandwiches somewhere else. They don’t realise that before they were the only place that made the hardware to play the software. Now they’ve already got their hardware from computer companies and telephone companies, they’re dominating the hardware. That’s why the record companies are screaming, “Fuck the phone companies, fuck Apple, fuck the PCs, we’re the record companies, listen to us, you still want to sign with us don’t you?” Yeah, I’ll sign if you give me some money. That’s why people want to get signed to a record company – money and exposure. But I’ll tell you this – welcome to the terrordome. If you sign to an urban division of a major now, can you wait for 24 months and then have them tell you what to do with it? They ain’t giving big advances like they did in the ‘80s. “Here’s £10.000 to hold you off for 24 months until we figure out how to position you in the marketplace.” “Can I release my mp3s on my own, get my shit out there?” “No, we don’t want that, we want exclusive rights to have you with us.” So say it’s £10.000 or even £100.000 and a group of five people, all co-songwriters; is that going to last for 24 months split among five and the making of the record? You might have made your music for nothing and shot the videos, but you’ve got to split with five people and figure all these other things into it. A lot of young people are, “I want to buy my mum her crib.” That’s £40.000. So you’ve got £60.000 left and it becomes a mathematical avalanche. That’s why it’s been an obstacle for women and great art to influence, because those areas are still closed.«

Participant: »You were talking about…«

Chuck D: »Where are you from?«

Participant: »Barcelona, I was born here. My name is David.«

Chuck D: »I’m always trying to be nosy and find out where people are from, so I can take it back home and say they were from Barcelona or Brooklyn.«

Participant: »I got a Public Enemy record when I was 15. I didn’t understand English at all. You talk about the power of the music, I want to ask about the power of the visual, too, the art and the design. Also the information you got from a Public Enemy record when you read the information on the sheet, lots of different bands. And the logo is a powerful logo, one of the best in music history, and also the concept of the organisation, the shows. I want to know who came with the concept of the logo and the albums?«

Chuck D: »We all came up with the concept, trying to present ourselves visually, and putting as much information on the album as possible. It was important, we didn’t have much time. This was before they made videos so we had to be able to explain ourselves. We called it the cereal box theory – when you go in the store the most you can do is read the box. Then when you eat the food, you want to read the box still, turn it around, read the ingredients on the back. We wanted to be able to get everything out in the artwork, the presentation. I designed the logo, I always liked to see the rock ‘n’ roll guys; they had logos, so why couldn’t it be the same in rap? I wanted to make the music legitimate, as much as other genres. Being a fan of history, you take and borrow from what you can see to make a visual presentation. We didn’t make up anything, we just took and borrowed from the visual aspects that we’d seen all our lives.«

Participant: »My name is Jose, I’m from Brazil. you said you started MCing because you went to parties and you were pissed off because they were so wack. How did you get so political? How do you feel about these other rappers who are just entertainment, no politics?«

Chuck D: »We were fortunate to come at another time, I was born in 1960. When I was born I had ‘negro’ on my birth certificate. Malcolm X was killed in 1965, I remember that Martin Luther King was killed in 1968, I was eight. The Vietnam War was in 1963, all the way until 1971, I remember that. I wrote Black Steel In The Hour Of Chaossay after my uncle had an officer come to his house and told him he was drafted into the Vietnam War. He opened the letter and just dropped it on the table, he’d just graduated from high school. These are the things that are inside me, as well as the music like Say It Loud, I’m Black And I’m Proud by James Brown, that said we’re black, we’re not coloured or negro. We’re black, we speak to the world because this is how we look. Curtis Mayfield always spoke inspirationally. These are things inside me because music was always in the house. You speak a lot of words, you speak where you come from and what you know. People say I’m political but this is where I come from and this is what’s inside me. I think a lot of the time rappers try to copy a political stance that wasn’t inside them in the same way. They may have been born in 1975 or 1982, different things going on. You can read back but you can’t actually talk from your personal experiences. That can help too.«

Participant: »It’s not like living through the war.«

Chuck D: »But you’re watching it and reacting to people who are talking to you. That’s why when Reagan and Bush were around in the ‘80s they knocked out plenty of opportunities, so people were responding to having a lot of guns in the community from nowhere, drugs in the community from nowhere. All of a sudden it goes from weed to cocaine in three years. So you talk to people, but you also have people in your family who were wiped out from these things so you can comment on it. Bill Clinton came along in the ‘90s and it seemed like people partied for eight years. P Diddy might have partied in ’96/’97, because Bill Clinton was going ‘round saying he was the black president (laughs), so people kind of went to sleep and thought they didn’t have to be aggressively important. Also Clinton cut off the rest of the world, he made America the focal point, so it was a party time, but around the rest of the world policies were enacted that were very American-like. But it wasn’t reflected in the music which was celebrating the good times. One of the reasons why I think America didn’t go for Hillary Clinton, but went for Barack Obama, is because you’ve had Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush. Clinton? No, we’ve had enough of that shit. We don’t want a dynasty. That has something to do with it. That’s a good point you brought up; it was already inside of me, so I can’t ask someone who’s 10-years old to share that point of view.«

Participant: »I’m Natalia from Mexico. I would like to ask, once you realised you had to deal with so many things around what you do, which in the beginning was just music, how can you deal with your inspiration? You have to do many things and manage a lot of things. What happens when you are on the stage and you have something to say? Have you ever felt lost?«

Chuck D: »The thing that always gives you perspective is studying other musicians - that enables you to see your surroundings a little bit better. When you’re making a record and you’ve done 16, 17 albums, you might think that’s a lot. But then you realise someone like Duke Ellington has done 76 albums and wrote when he was 76 on his deathbed, on matchsticks or something. Or someone was working on a plantation, then was finally able to record, then had to go to prison – the Leadbelly story. Study other musicians and what they’ve gone through in the past, even in the present, with artists around you, and you’ll get inspiration from there. You’ll find there are artists that look at you and are trying to get where you’re at. It’s key for artists to talk to other artists – how do you do what you’re doing, how do you make it from A to B, how do you work at the same time and raise your kids, play a club, find time to be with your mother and father wherever they might live? There are people in this room who you’ll get the most out of. I travelled here yesterday, got here late after a long day at Heathrow and I was knocked out. But I’m an old man and I don’t understand how you can stay up ‘til 4.00am and be up at nine. I did that for years back when my kids weren’t grown, but I look back and think, ‘How the hell did I do that?’ But you just do it. When they were single digits, I would go on tour, get back, I’d take them to school, finish coming out of the studio at 5.00am, take them to school at 7.00, sleep for an hour, answer calls, do some interviews, pick them up from school at 3.00, feed them, go somewhere at 9.00, then back in the studio again. Then you’ve got to go the UK for three days, go to California. But there are 24 hours in a day. You can’t master time, you can only manage it. Sometimes you can’t share time because time is different to other people. Sometimes it’s easier to look at days as 24 hours and then break it down into minutes. Instead of saying you did it for an hour, break your hour into 60 minutes, dedicate minutes to something, and break those minutes down to 60 seconds. I tell artists to be fair to their fans, treat them like family, so they’re not fans, they’re fams. If you have bodyguards keeping you away, five people come to you, you’re keeping them away; but you can spend two minutes, give them quality time and they’ll remember it for a lifetime. You can spend 10 minutes trying to keep them away. It only takes six seconds to shake someone’s hand. It only takes ten seconds to shake five people’s hands, look them in the eye and say hello. A lot of things this industry tries to do, like bodyguards, VIP sections, stay away – they spend more time and energy fighting people to make them stay away instead of engaging them to come in and communicate. This industry has to work on better public relations, then the audience and performer become as one and you have something that lasts a long time – true respect. I see these people surrounded by bodyguards and there ain’t no one trying to beat up on this person. I could name some names, I’ve seen these people with bodyguards around to protect them from what? Saying hello? So that’s how you guys want to treat them – your public is your relations. Look at situations carefully and manage time too.«

RBMA: »So on the subject of time, I think we’re out of time.«

Chuck D: »I also want to give out my email address, since I have no cards. Myspace is chuckdpublicenemy and my email is mrchuck@rapstation.com. It’s been an enjoyable experience, thanks for the opportunity, keep doing the music, keep knowing how much fun it is, and keep that youthful spirit of knowing you’re cultural ambassadors, so when you go home to your countries you understand the music and the culture are the things that tie us all together on this very important planet. Thank you.«

(applause)