Session Transcript:
Gilberto Gil
Red Bull Music Academy, Sao Paulo 2002

The video stream for this lecture can be watched here.

In 1964, Brazil suffered a military coup and lockdown commenced. Tropicalia was a new form of avantgarde music which challenged the status quo, culturally, politically and musically. At the forefront was Gilberto Gil, who spearheaded the new way of playing. "The biggest reaction against us was over the use of electric guitars," he explains. "They were forbidden." Welcome Gilberto Gil: musical innovator, political firebrand and Brazil's new Minister for Culture.

RBMA: »Welcome to the Red Bull Music Academy. It is a real honour to have you here today.«

GIL: »Yes, it's a pleasure for me too. I'm excited and curious because a lot of the music here is quite different. For me, it's another kind of music but it's also noise. I've been mixing music and noises in certain proportions for some time now. My first contact with this kind of music was in 1959, in Salvador. David Tudor is a famous American pianist who used to play pieces by Stockhausen and Pierre Boulez. He was invited to Salvador to perform and he was using early synthesizers, playing electronic music. That night I was turned on electronic music and I've been close to it ever since.

In my career I've been through many different periods and moments of music. I am here today because of Tropicalia. Tropicalia started the moment myself and some other guys and girls decided it was time to develop new concepts, techniques in Brazilian music. To us, the changes we made were as significant as replacing vinyl with CDs. We ended up in prison because of that.«

RBMA: »A discussion so heavy that you were sent to prison. What exactly were the reasons for the authorities to incarcerate you?«

GIL: »Well, we were accused of subverting the arts by by growing our hair, dressing differently and smoking marijuana. The whole thing was used politically because this was also the time when the military seized power in Brazil. They accused us of disturbing the people and the only language they understood was force. So they forced us into prison and then they forced us into exile.«

RBMA: »It's fascinating that similar things were happening all over the world at the very same time, like the riots in Paris and unrest at many of the American university campuses. Were there any links between these events and Tropicalia?«

GIL: »Yes, we were connecting. Brazil has been a connected culture for a while. We have links with Europe and the States and so on. So in 1966/'7, when the Beatles started, we were paying attention to them, following their progress.«

RBMA: »What exactly were you paying attention to?«

GIL: »Everything. The youth and their attitude toward the conservative atmosphere at the time. The revolutions in Cuba, independence for many British and French colonies in Africa. The movements in South America also. The action against imperialism, that sort of thing. It was blended together with the aesthetics of rock 'n' roll and electronic music, modern jazz and Stockhausen. Movies and angry literature - many different things.«

RBMA: »How much music, film and literature was available to you at this time, given that the military was in power?«

GIL: »Well, as I was saying, Brazil had a connections already so we at least some fragments of American culture in the main towns like Salvador and Sao Paulo. There were groups there connected to international cultures.«

RBMA: »At the same time, Brazilian music was already getting internationally popular. As far as we understand, Tropicalia was also a reaction against current popular Brazilian music of the time.«

GIL: »We were trying to send a message to the musicians in Brazil, the composers, singers and producers. We were saying: "Let's try out some new ingredients. Let's try the new elements and update Brazilian culture to a more international level. There are these avantgarde happenings going on outside Brazil, so let's start something like that here."

The central concept of Tropicalia was to just try this process. Use new elements in music, like the electric guitar. That was something new here and the biggest reaction against us was over the use of electric guitars, they were forbidden.

Another element of Tropicalia was about revitalising parts of the old culture. Some of the original rhythms from the North-East and the South were considered to be peasant music, second class and ignored. So Tropicalia was moving in two directions, trying to tell Brazilian culture that there is no future without the past.«

RBMA: »Could you tell us a bit more about these times that led to your imprisonment and subsequent exile?«

GIL: »The whole of South America and the Third World were trying to develop their own political voices. They were developing their own systems and lifestyles while the global central powers, especially the United States, were trying to establish a global standard from their point of view.

Brazil was part of a rebellion of this standardizing process. Brazil is a big country with a big population, big resources that gives it a natural leadership in South America. Brazil wanted to become a fully developed nation, as did Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. There were nationalist movements all over the continent that resulted in violent, military coups everywhere. And so they dismantled the whole process in South America and my going to prison was a consequence of that because I was a student then. Students took to the streets in Brazil to protest against the coup. Many were put in prison and some were even tortured and killed.«

RBMA: »You were exiled from Brazil and so came to London. Can you tell us about your first day there?«

GIL: »On my first day of exile in London, I saw an empty stage in Hyde Park. Somebody told us the Rolling Stones performed there yesterday. They had done their famous Hyde Park concert the day before. That was the scene in July 1969, the Rolling Stones and the Beatles creating their label, Apple. I was living around Carnaby Street and Chelsea. That was the London that I arrived in.«

RBMA: »When you were told that you have to leave Brazil, did you think you would ever be able to return?«

GIL: »They told us explicitly to go and wait. "If we say you can come back, you come. If not, don't try because you will face the consequences and it will be painful for you." We tried Paris first, but Paris was very edgy and we were excited about the Beatles and the Stones in London. A lot of Tropicalia was into the swinging London thing, so we had a curious feeling about London. We tried London for one month at a time so we could adjust and ended up staying for three years. Then they called us through the Brazilian embassy.«

RBMA: »They called you?«

GIL: »Yes. They say that we are allowed back. So I kind of visited first to check if it was OK and then three months later I returned.«

RBMA: »Were you told to keep a low profile when you returned?«

GIL: »We were not told to but we had a feeling, you know? But by then we had changed also. We had different prospects and we had different ideas and different goals and adjusting to the regime was not too bad. At the same the dictatorship process was breaking down. They needed fresh people and fresh ideas. It would be OK with them if we made a little noise, it would help them in the process of bringing back the civil society to power. It was very convenient for us because we could express ourselves.«

RBMA: »When you say adjust, do you mean that you found different ways to say things, like through irony or not being too obvious?«

GIL: »There were composers in Brazil, artists, filmakers and the theatre. They could find good metaphors to express themselves. But going back to Tropicalia specifically, we weren't saying: "See the military in power, let's all rebel against them." It was nothing like that. Our goal was the renewing of the languages. We had a bigger problem with the civil society. I have to say that most of the problems we had were with our peers, the traditional songwriters with family values, rather than with the military.«

RBMA: »There was a famous concert where this came into evidence.«

GIL: »Yeah, at the Sucata nightclub in Rio. It was a performance happening. Os Mutantes were playing their electric guitars and there were fake speeches and things. It was very theatrical.«

RBMA: »What was the reaction?«

GIL: »The reaction was very heavy, very bad. They accused us of subversion and abusing the national anthem, which we didn't. They invented that charge to justify their systematic persecution. That was late November 1968 and then on December 13, they dissolved congress and set in motion the chain of events that led to our imprisonment and exile.«

RBMA: »You were accused of many things at that time?«

GIL: »We were accused of by both of the political sides in Brazil. The left accused us of being pro-imperialist, by advocating American music styles like rock 'n' roll and our use of the electric guitar. The nationalists accused us of being against traditional values - that we were selling out Brazilian culture, or something like that. They took us to court. You can't imagine the repertoire of accusations. We were a great menace of corruption for the youth, for their sons and especially for their daughters.«

RBMA: »So were you proud of what you did?«

GIL: »It's not a question of pride, but I am comfortable with what we did, especially because there was no big damage, you know? The results were good. We gave Brazil and Brazilian culture an upgrade in the process of moving towards the future. So I'm here now in the future. It's not pride, but I have a kind of smiling grace.«

RBMA: »Here and now, you have a relaxed smile, you feel people's respect for your good self. But how did you keep focused in those hard times, with everyone accusing you of things? How did you keep your perspective?«

GIL: »There was no time for that. It was like being in a war. I mean, you had to defend yourself and that meant attacking at that time. So there was no permissible rest for us, we had to keep on fighting. The situation demanded that we keep our perspective on modernity and the future. We kept that perspective all the time because I kept being Tropicalist. I have never given up. I'm still a Tropicalia guy.«

RBMA: »It sounded like a really harsh situation. But to others around the world who don't understand the language, when they hear just the music, these fighting songs sound like an invitation to love.«

GIL: »Yes, but we were fighting all the same. When I say fighting, it's against a process that can lead you to prison. Going to prison is something that demands fighting against. It was not just a question of songwriting, it was about values. Conservative values against new ones. The clash was more of a generation gap kind of problem. The arts, the economy, technology, tradition and progress - it was all at stake. We had to fight and some people actually died. Many thousands died.«

RBMA: »So to get probably a better understanding of what this fighting and attitude would sound like, can you sing us a song of from time?«

GIL: »Let me try one that was written by myself. This was the one that gave birth to my personal involvement in the struggle. It's a romantic song, but at the same time it talks about anguish and could be symbolic of the general struggle for perfection and how hard it is to watch imperfection moving around.«

(Gilberto starts to sing)

»That was the Capoeira.«

RBMA: »What is Capoiera?«

GIL: »Capoeira is a style of fighting from African descent. It was developed by the slaves to protect themselves from their aggressors, their masters. In time, Capoeira became a folk style. It's a martial art in Brazil and the music that comes from it became a very a referential kind of style for musicology and so on. I chose that style because it was indicative of those times.«

RBMA: »Your work is popular all over the world. There is music out there that just transcends language: records by yourself, Jorge Ben Jor or Terry Callier. But how does it feel when you're playing to thousands and only a small amount of them actually understand the words?«

GIL: »You mean the language barrier when singing in Portuguese, which I do most of the time? Well, nowadays people have a kind of multicultural attitude. What we have in the world today allows people to feel comfortable and satisfied just by having the possibility of going to a concert to see a guy from South America, or from Asia.

If you go to Johannesburg, or one of those big towns in Africa, they like to have people singing from other places. You know, language is an idiomatic thing and we like the of possibility of sharing differences. It's part of our culture today. It's one of the characteristics of modernity.

Portuguese is a very mellow, soft and contagious kind of language, especially in music. There is a certain spirituality when you go to a concert, it's like going to a church. It's even better, you know? You have all the advantages and no hassles. It's like that. It's a transcending sensation.«

RBMA: »Speaking of religious moments, what was it like meeting Fela Kuti at his shrine?«

GIL: «Oh, that was something. Guess who I met there besides him? Stevie Wonder. Man, that was something.«

RBMA: »When was this?«

GIL: »1976. During the second Black Festival Of Arts And Culture (FESTAC), which was held first in Senegal, then in Lagos. It was going to be held in other places but it never happened after that. Around 50.000 black people gathered in Lagos, Nigeria. I was part of a group invited to represent Brazil. We were a delegation of singers, musicians, and artists. People from all over Africa and from all over the black diaspora in the world were there. We spent one month in Lagos. I went to Fela Kuti's shrine on my first night there. I went another three or four times and it was incredible. He would be there with his wives and children, colleagues and musicians. He would play through the night, it was great.«

RBMA: »So did you guys play together at any stage?«

GIL: «Yes, jamming was kind of a natural thing there. For one month we had so many opportunities to be together and to jam, so we did.«

RBMA: »Your new album is a collection of Bob Marley songs. What influence did Bob Marley's music have on you?«

GIL: »Oh, a great influence. I'm a big fan of Bob Marley. My first contact with his music was during my last days in London in 1972. His first record, one of his best records, was playing in the music shops around Portobello, where I lived. I didn't know who was singing this music but I knew that style was from Jamaica because of the Jamaican community around me. Then a month later, I came back to Brazil and heard his records again, like Burnin' and Catch A Fire. I became a fan and I've been cultivating his music since. I was the first to translate one of his songs into Portuguese in 1968 - No Woman No Cry. I've been singing his songs for a long time and decided to do a whole album of his music, firstly out of the passion I have for it and secondly because I think that he needs recognition on a deeper level.

He helped to create and consolidate a new style of music that was absolutely original, him and the Wailers. This one of the reasons why I haven't changed the arrangements much. My inclination was to really reproduce the sound he created because he and other musicians of his status, like Cole Porter or John Lennon have been recorded by so many different musicians and in so many styles. I wanted to sing his songs the way he did, to emphasize and stress and commitment to his music and achieve this sense of belonging, you know?

He was adopted by Brazil, by Santa Catarina and Rio De Janeiro, even Sao Paulo. Reggae became part of our culture. It's one of the Brazilian styles today so there were various reasons to do this album.«

RBMA: »Can you tell us what it's like to be an icon?«

GIL: »It's good, it's nice. Except for the hassles that sometimes you're submitted to but I'm used to it. I'm a street guy. I'm very easy guy with people. I'm attentive to everybody, you know? I love to go to supermarkets to buy my own stuff and at the same time, I'm on TV, I'm in the newspaper. I'm an icon here and that helps black people, which is necessary in a place like Brazil. They say: "That's our guy there." That kind of thing.

You can help change values. I support the gay movement, and people would say: "What? Gays?" Then we start a discussion. We create an open space for discussing values and things like that. So being an icon can be very helpful, depending on what you use it for.«

RBMA: »What's the situation in Brazil in regard to racial issues?«

GIL: »It's OK, it's progressing. But we should never forget the fact that it's still a struggle. That it was only about 100 years ago when the slaves were freed here and that the Ku-Klux Klan still exists in the United States. But we're not doing too bad here.«