Session Transcript:
Mulatu Astatke
Red Bull Music Academy, Toronto 2007

The video stream for this lecture can be watched here.

Mulatu Astatke has become a star in his sixties, thanks to the Ethiopiques series and subsequent use of his music in Jim Jarmusch’s Broken Flowers. The father of Ethio-jazz recounts both his and his country’s extraordinary story, revealing some of the earliest roots of its sound and exploring connections between the bushmen of Ethiopia and revered composers like Debussy and Charlie Parker. Want to see a whole tribe who play just one tune between them? Mulatu shows us here, as well as talking about his personal background, his schooling in the UK and the USA and how the emergence of old friends like Hugh Masekela and Fela as African stars spurred him onto fashion his own East African sound.

RBMA: »Hi everybody, welcome back. It’s a rare honour and privilege to welcome our guest. He’s currently residing in Boston where he’s received a prestigious fellowship at Harvard University. The man to my left is a national treasure of Ethiopia, Mr Mulatu Astatke.«

(applause)

Mulatu Astatke: »Thank you, thank you.«

RBMA: »It’s an absolute pleasure to be here in his presence. He’s been so kind as to bring along a whole wealth of video and musical treasures for us to look at. The first thing we’re going to watch before we start talking is something he brought to illustrate aspects of Ethiopian dance culture you may or may not be familiar with.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Thank you for the welcome. How many of you know Ethiopia? OK, very few. These films are going to feature our music and dance and customs. I want you just to relax and see these videos so you can be better familiarised with our culture and music. As you know, Ethiopia is a country that’s very culturally rich. There are about 80 different languages spoken and maybe, further to our discussion, we can figure out what Ethiopia has contributed to the development of art and music throughout the world. I want you just to relax and feel Ethiopia from the beginning. Thank you (applause / video starts). This film was taken in Japan where I’ve toured. I have a cultural group who are visiting Japan and South of Japan. This film was taken in Fukuoka. This is the music from Walu, in the centre of Ethiopia.«

(music - unknown)

»So the movements usually differ from the different tribes of Ethiopia. So this is the Walu dance movement. In the Northern part of Ethiopia the dance movement is mostly from the shoulders up. It’s interesting watching this cultural movement, the dance, the movement, the culture. Most of the movements and the sounds these days are taken from these people. Musicians who are interested in researching the history of the music should listen to the roots of music, they should concentrate on the roots. That’s where everything is happening. Later in our discussion we’ll see those people from the bushes dance. I’ve great respect for them. It’s nice to look back at those people and get something from them as well. I feel it’s so great because they are contributors as far as musical instruments are concerned and later we’ll see how people from the bushes created the diminished scales. When we learn here how Charlie Parker, Debussy and Bach were using these scales. Now what you’re watching is from Tigray, to the North of Ethiopia. This is how the music is, usually in a 5/4 rhythm. We have very complicated rhythms also in Ethiopia. So you see every weekend people dance in different costumes and to different instruments as well. Now you’re watching music from Tigray. Probably the moonwalk of Michael Jackson is here as well.«

(music – unknown)

»That was from the North of Ethiopia, from Tigray. I don’t know what you feel, do you want to continue watching more of Ethiopia, or shall we stop this and start discussing other situations?«

RBMA: »I want to also let everybody know they can ask questions in the midst of this if you want clarification. No need to wait until the end, because there’s a lot of this that’s new to everybody. So, if there is something you need clarifying, ask away, don’t feel shy. I have a question about what we were watching. Those are considered traditional dance forms from different areas in Ethiopia, is that right?«

Mulatu Astatke: »This music has developed. In the early part of the century we never had a cultural group formed in this way. Usually the people, the musicians, the dancers, used to play individually, they never had a chance to form a group and play. What happened was, during the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, people who were so attached to the country and wanted to fight for it, organised a place called Hagir Fikir Theatre of Ethiopia. Then later that became a cultural centre. There was one Ethiopian at that time, a violin player, who had experience of bringing music, so he tried to develop a cultural group. That’s how we started, that was the first stage of cultural music, coming together as a group. Then after a few years that starts developing and our instruments start developing pick-ups. Before those instruments didn’t have pick-ups, and if you take an instrument like the kirar, the one with the strings built with gut, that doesn’t take a pick-up. So it was hard for an organised orchestra to play because you can’t hear it. So the development came from using a pick-up so everybody can be heard and an audience can hear it.«

RBMA: »So an electric pick-up was added to the acoustic instruments so they can be amplified.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Excellent. So that’s what you see here, we use pick-ups for these instruments. That’s how it sounded. So that was the second development to our culture. So do we have any more questions?«

Participant: »It’s not directly about the music, but the dancing. How do the eyes and facial expressions relate to the music? Is it like a narrative? Where does it come from and what does it mean?«

Mulatu Astatke: »A lot of different dances and music come from the different cultures of Ethiopia. Sometimes it depends. If the dancers are playing weddings, for example, sometimes you see happier faces, different kinds of movement. But it depends how the situation is. There are developments to the dances. Probably what you see here is the developed one of the culture. There are the roots dancers in different parts of Ethiopia. The way they dance and what they dance is very different. That one is more traditional and more to the roots. But what you see here has another development. Also we have choreographers who come up with different ideas and probably tell them to move in different ways, and this and that. So these are the developed ones, but later we’ll see the traditional ones as well.«

RBMA: »Can you talk a bit about the cultural centre you said was established in the mid-'30s? How did this influence popular music? What was the relationship between the cultural centre for music and theatre and other forms of popular music?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Actually, both went in different directions. I think the Emperor [Selassie] about 50 or 60 years ago had travelled to Europe. There were no European instruments in Ethiopia at that time, so he was greeted by military march bands and went to different theatres and those more developed artworks. He was thrilled by what he’d seen, so when he came back he thinks, ‘Why don’t we have it here as well?’ So he got some Armenians who lived in Ethiopia and ordered them to bring European instruments and teach in Ethiopia. That’s how the modern music movement starts. The culture has different directions and modern music has different directions. After that the formal march bands developed later into big bands, using four trumpets, four trombones, five saxophones and rhythm sections. So we had a theatre called the Haile Selassie Theatre and he employed a European to come over and become director of that. He was a great musical composer and arranger by the name of Zelenka, so he formed this big band and started to teach music. That’s how our modern music started in Ethiopia. Even though he was a good teacher, he could also write, arrange and conduct. Those musicians were studying music from stock arrangements, and with jazz, even in the stock arrangements, there is a part where you must solo, but there was no jazz soloist at that time. They just read the parts and that was it. Then a while after, modern music nightclubs started to flourish in Ethiopia and we used to have small groups teaching themselves somehow and playing more popular modern music, but lots of jazz. When we’re talking about jazz, it’s after I finish Berklee, Boston. In fact, I was the first African to be enrolled in college in Boston. That was in ’58 when it was the Schillinger School. So I learned there about jazz arrangements as a vibraphone player. I travelled to New York, too, with my own group, the Ethiopian Quintet. We played Latin jazz, jazz and so on in New York. So I went back home and started this movement called ‘Ethio-jazz’. New York in ’66 was very interesting, it was with me and Hugh Masekela and Fela from Nigeria. There we were in 1966 struggling to put Africa in the modern context of jazz music. I had different directions, Hughie had different directions and Fela had different directions for that music. So it was interesting. This is what happened after 30 or 40 years for Ethiopian jazz to be recognised. Probably you’ve heard of a film called Broken Flowers. My music was featured on this film. Ethio-Jazz is now known to the world, we’re in New York Times and all over the place. That’s our development in modern music.«

RBMA: »I wonder if you could talk about how you personally became involved in music. We were speaking about when you were a child in Ethiopia and there wasn’t a lot of opportunity to study music in schools. You studied in England as a boy, can you talk about how that influenced you?«

Mulatu Astatke: »I’ve been one of the luckiest men, I think. In most parts of Third World countries music and art aren’t accepted like other subjects, like physics, chemistry or whatever. This is one of our great problems in Third World countries. In other countries music and dance are taught in kindergarten from the earliest age, which is great. Imagine how many great times we lose because of that – you don’t even get a chance to know yourself unless they teach you. Most countries, like America, they give a chance to a person to know themselves. That is a problem in Africa. Me, I was lucky because I had a chance to go to high school in England, in North Wales, even though I didn’t know anything about my talents. My elementary schooling was in Ethiopia. Since I haven’t taken anything, I think I wanted to become an aeronautical engineer, because I didn’t know myself. I started knowing myself after I arrived in North Wales. I had fantastic music teachers, art teachers and dance teachers. So we studied this musical art, it was included in our curriculum. So I was playing a trumpet and finally ended up playing a clarinet. This teacher was really a fan of my talent, told me I had a great talent and I should continue in music. Imagine not having the chance to know yourself, it’s really very bad. So I got the chance and I am what I am because I had the chance to find myself. This is how I became a musician.«

RBMA: »What kind of music were you excited about at that time, when you were just starting your studies? You were in England, what was exciting for you at that time?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Well, after I finished my studies I went to classical school, called Trinity College in London, even though I was very much interested in developing our music. Ethiopia was not very well known in music at that time, it was like 30 or 40 years ago, nobody knew about Ethiopian musicians then. I remember most of the African musicians in London, from Ghana, Nigeria and so on, they were beautifully promoting their music. I was mad and jealous about that because our music hadn’t been heard anywhere. So I decided to really listen more, work more on our Ethiopian music, and I remember I had one Trinidadian very well-known musician, so I made him sing Ethiopian songs. Somehow we organised the band in London as well. That’s what I was interested in, promoting our music and making sense of our music because there was nothing much happening at home either.«

RBMA: »So it’s definitely been a focus of your life, this incorporating of traditional Ethiopian themes, but also introducing a lot of new elements and orchestrations into Ethiopian music. I guess your time in London, seeing the people from Ghana and Nigeria going so strong, must have been an inspiration for you in your struggle to bring Ethiopian music to a wider audience.«

Mulatu Astatke: »I heard great music from Nigerians and Ghanaians. I was also very close with Ronnie Scott, who had a famous club, and also Tubby Hayes, who was a great jazz musician. I was inspired by him, because he played vibes and saxophone. That was when I was in London. When I got into Berklee it was with the aim of learning and improving my music. London was my inspiration at the beginning.«

RBMA: »From London you got into Berklee, Boston. What made you choose Berklee and what were you excited about learning when you got there?«

Mulatu Astatke: »You know, the history of jazz music and the African contribution to that music is over 50/60 persons. As an African I’ve [got] a responsibility to research and give a place for what Africa has contributed. At Berklee I learnt a lot. There are good musicians there also. I developed what we call Ethio-jazz music and learnt the history of the Africans, who nobody seems to know very much about. Nobody thinks to do much research or look at their contribution. I thought if I really make a study and do some research, somehow our contribution would be realized and given its place in the world. That was it, really.«

RBMA: »Listening to popular music at the time, say Latin, what kind of similarities did you notice between the music of your country and what was going on there?«

Mulatu Astatke: »There’s a great connection between Latin and African music. If you listen to the rhythm of Ghana, Nigeria, Senegal and some of the Eastern parts of Africa, the rhythm is there. What Cubans play is also being played in Africa. I’ll give you an example. I had to go to Cuba once, and my first question was to show me where the first African landed. So they gave me the chance to go there and I sat there and they started playing and dancing. The language was only Spanish but the rhythms, the movement, everything was what I’d seen in West Africa. If you had a drummer coming from West Africa, the Cubans could just count one-two-three-four, they could just play. These are the rhythms and the music I’ve heard there; same with the dancers. I had a lot of discussions with dancers and the drummers, so there’s a lot of connections between Latin and African music. Probably the difference is what we call the montunos, that is the repetitive sounds in Latin music, which differs from African. Maybe if you go Eastern Africa, to Swahili music, there are some similarities, but in Swahili music there is what we call the kikareke, which is equivalent to mambo one and mambo two in Latin jazz. What happens is, in mambo one the music tends to go faster, more exciting. In kikareke it tends to go slower. Besides the rhythms, any other differences aren’t known to me. When I think of African music and Latin there’s not much difference. Of course, there was a lot of development in Latin jazz, maybe because of their closeness to America and the number of Cubans there, so it developed faster than most African music.«

RBMA: »I believe the first recordings you made were entitled Afro Latin Soul and in these recordings you incorporated the modern African sounds you were hearing with Ethiopian melodies and scales. Is that correct?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yeah. As I was explaining before, when I think of the rhythms I think of Latin, the rhythms being an African arrangement. The only thing in my arrangement that was close to Latin was the montunos, but mine and Ethiopian music is usually based on five tones. So my music was five against twelve. It’s not always easy to merge these two scales, you have to be very careful, know your voicings, your chord progressions. I hear some music in five tone scales and sometimes it doesn’t merge together. So what I did was to find ways to merge the five against twelve with nice chord progressions and voices. That’s how my music became successful, because it doesn’t lose the flavour of the five tones.«

RBMA: »For those who aren’t familiar with music theory, can you explain what you mean by a five tone scale versus a twelve tone scale.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Most of our music now is based on five tone scales. We have four different modes where we write our melodies. We have what we call tizita, where you take it on C, D, E, then you have G, A. Those are the five tones and we call it the tizita scale. They are used a lot by jazz musicians these days. Then you have the minor ones: C, D, E Flat, then G, A Flat, then B, which make very interesting scales.«

RBMA: »So this is basically dividing an octave…«

Mulatu Astatke: »No, it’s like a major second, a third, minor third.«

RBMA: »But your moving from C to C with five steps as opposed to the do-re-mi-fa-so twelve steps.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yes, you’re five out from the major scales. We have another one called bati, which is very interesting as well, which goes C, F, G, B and C. So that’s very interesting, called bati, makes nice sounds. Then you have the bati minor, which goes C, E Flat, F, G and B Flat. That’s the minor bati. Then we have anchi hoye. Anchi hoye is based like C, D, not E, then you go to F, G, A, then C. Very interesting. Then we have another one called anchi hoye. A lot of jazz musicians love these scales. This one goes C, D Flat, F, G Flat, then A. So we have a minor of that, too, which goes C, D Flat, F, G, A Flat, then C. So these are the four different modes we use to compose our music. This is what I was working on, using different progressions and voicings to these scales. The songs you heard on the screen were based on these scales.«

RBMA: »So when you recorded your own music your challenge was to incorporate these traditional codes with twelve tone music. One of the things you added was the montuno with the piano riff. I’d like to play something from one of those original records that illustrates that.«

Mulatu Astatke: »The montunos maybe.«

(music: Mulatu Astatke - unknown / applause)

»This was done about 30 years ago in New York. I was talking about the merging of the twelve and five. This is how the five tone scale is being backed by the montunos, but the flavour is still there, that’s what makes it very interesting. It’s very Ethiopian how the montuno is used, and the five scales that we’re using. That was from the Bati scale. We used that so nicely, a nice approach, and that’s what makes Ethio-jazz very interesting.«

RBMA: »Are these scales used to convey different emotions or for specific circumstances?«

Mulatu Astatke: »No, but what the word is saying is about the youth. The youth isn’t scared of anything, they usually move forward, especially in the quiet part. So that’s what that was saying.«

RBMA: »Who were the musicians? You mentioned it was recorded in New York. Was it difficult to find the musicians to record the music?«

Mulatu Astatke: »I had this group of mine called the Ethiopian Quintet, friends of African-Americans, so it was a combination of Ethiopian, Latin and African-Americans.«

RBMA: »I noticed the guy was singing in Spanish at one point of the song, while the chorus was in Ethiopian.«

Mulatu Astatke: »And also there weren’t many Ethiopian musicians in America 35 years ago. Now there are plenty. I wish I had an Ethiopian singing that because it would blend beautifully with the arrangements, but it was sung in Latin and the lyrics were translated to him in Spanish. That was it, it was a good combination.«

RBMA: »It sounded pretty good to me. An interesting thing, speaking of vocalists, is that after recording these records you travelled back to Addis and the next records you made there were instrumental. Is that right?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yes.«

RBMA: »As I understand it was pretty unusual at that time to have a whole instrumental record. Most of the music was vocal.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yeah, but usually when you try something new there’s a problem. It wasn’t easy and I had a lot of problems. I used one very interesting instrument, the bagana with ten strings, which is usually used in church music. So I remember once there was a very famous playwright in Ethiopia and this very well known priest who killed himself for what he believed. So this playwright wrote a play about this priest. By using the bagana I wrote some nice jazz arrangements for the piano and other instruments backing this instrument. So we had a concert and I heard people telling me to get off the stage. I’ll remember that always. It was a big struggle, I wouldn’t stop, I just kept doing my Ethio-jazz, I was fighting more for the baganas, just fighting everybody. So finally it worked and no one says get off, now it’s just standing ovations. So it was struggling and fighting for what you believe, which is beautiful. Ethio-jazz, to reach the standard it is now, of course, before Broken Flowers and before that in New York as well, is great. So I fought and struggled with it, but thank god, no problems now.«

Participant: »I don’t know anything about jazz, but the track you played from beginning to end, it stayed in the same key. When it comes to modular transition, how do you change the chords in the song?«

Mulatu Astatke: »There are two ways of approaching these modes. There are ways of using two or three of these modes by changing scales. The other way is on this piece, it’s a montuno. In Latin music there’s usually only one or two chords in a montuno, so this one used only two changes. But there are other pieces that have a lot of changes, jazz changes. But to me it’s not exactly jazz changes because I have to use a different approach to it. Sometimes I use classical chords so it does lose the five-tone feeling, sometimes I use progressions, I can go to four, one, then flat five, six, one. This progression is better for these scales. So what you heard is a normal change. Even those chords are difficult to approach without losing the feeling. So mostly it’s done by using C, D Flat, then C, A Flat, C on top, then to D Flat. So I have the C Flat movement which really blends beautifully, sounds really nice.«

RBMA: »So when you returned to Addis and you were playing the music, besides the acceptance, were there other problems? Were instruments widely available? What sort of bands were playing? Did you have a good pool of musicians to choose from?«

Mulatu Astatke: »No, I had to train musicians. As far as instruments were concerned, it’s very difficult, because the taxes on those instruments meant a lot of musicians couldn’t afford to buy them. That’s a really difficult problem for musicians in Africa. It’s not only music, even sports are taxed so high. It’s so hard to buy instruments, or things like sports shoes, quite expensive. Also there’s the problem of losing talents, because it’s not just the school problem, but the instruments are so expensive you can’t afford to buy them. That was a difficulty; not enough instruments, not enough trained musicians so I had to train a lot myself. But somehow I managed.«

RBMA: »You also brought back to Ethiopia some instruments which had never been introduced into Ethiopia before.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yes, vibes is not known well in Africa, even though it’s found in West Africa. It has different techniques and different names, but it’s a traditional instrument which is very similar to a marimba. Vibraphone is the development of those instruments. It’s very strange to Ethiopia, also the Hammond organ and conga drums. We had drums, but conga drums are a different shape. These were introduced when I went back home with these instruments and changed the arrangements. Also there weren’t many counterpoints to work with these arrangements, so I used a lot of counterpoint in the melodies. Also the military band used the canon form, which is like when someone says something and someone else repeats, that’s what we called canon. We used a lot of them. My music was using a lot of high tension codes, 13 flat fives and I used a lot of counterpoints to those melodies.«

RBMA: »What was the popular music scene like then? What were people going out and dancing to? Were there nightclubs? Where did people go?«

Mulatu Astatke: »There was a lot of different types of music. We had radio stations, TV stations, they played a lot of American music, they played very little jazz and classical. Then the popular music was cha-cha-cha and mambos and a few James Brown and soca records.«

RBMA: »Did you perform in nightclubs meant for dancing? What types of venues did you play?«

Mulatu Astatke: »I had a very nice group called the All Stars and later one called the Ethio Stars. The one called All Stars was a very nice band, very popular and we travelled quite a lot, staying at the Sheraton Hotel. We played in the Gulf areas, like Abu Dhabi, Dubai, they had the Sheraton hotel chains there and my group used to play there.«

RBMA: »At this point your music was becoming more accepted and popular in Ethiopia.«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yes, certainly. I did a lot of recording for Phillips-Ethiopia. There was no CD at that time so we did cassettes and LPs. I did them for Philips and another company called Amha, who produced 45s. So I did a lot of that and my music became accepted and popular, the band became good. Then I moved abroad and came back to America. So I left the band, which is not there anymore. We played some nice music, in a few different clubs, played weddings, things like that.«

RBMA: »Around this time, the late ‘60s, early ‘70s, the Duke Ellington Orchestra toured Africa. Did you have a chance to see that?«

Mulatu Astatke: »That was really a great moment. He came to Ethiopia for about four or five days and I received his call. He stayed at the Hilton. I wrote one arrangement for Duke’s band and that was my great moment. It wasn’t for money, it was for respect. We learned of his music when we were at Berklee, so that was really great for me to write an arrangement for Duke’s band and for it to be performed in Ethiopia. He said: “I never expected this from an African.” That was a great comment, I have great respect for him.«

RBMA: »What did he mean by saying he didn’t expect that from an African?«

Mulatu Astatke: »It was a very nice experimental work. I used three Ethiopian modes for the trumpet and combined the three together for the arrangement and did some beautiful blending. That’s what surprised him, I think, he wasn’t expecting that sort of sound. He loved it.«

RBMA: »Great. I know you’ve brought some more videos for us to watch, including some early video of you experimenting with some combination of Western and Ethiopian modes. Maybe we can watch that and you can tell us what it’s about.«

Mulatu Astatke: »This second film is so important, and any musicians here, I want you to listen. This is what I was talking about, the diminished scales. We have to give respect to the people in the bush because they are our sources, the people who have given so many instruments, so many nice sounds to us. I usually travel to outer Ethiopia for research, and I found these people playing diminished scales. So I took this film to Berklee to show the head of the composition department. I said: “These people are Debussy or Charlie Parker.” I said: “I just want to know because I research.” He was confused, he couldn’t answer the question. I have very great respect for these people. As musicians we should go back because you’ll always find something very interesting. On this video you’re going to see how these people use five tones scales. I was just wondering how they can hear the piece and how they created the scales. There are three parts I want you to watch. One is them being natural, themselves. The next part will be developing those people with the instrument called the mina with three other types. There are three tribes, one is called Aré, which uses G6 codes, and another uses instruments like trumpets. One is like a baritone sax, all in bamboo in different sizes. The third will be the orchestra and how it is developed in our concert. There are three developments. I’d like to have your comment later. This is from Southern Ethiopia, an instrument called the mina (video starts). This is how the instrument looks. The mina is the first one (video continues).«

RBMA: »Are they improvising or do they have specific parts?«

Mulatu Astatke: »They have a part where each one plays. So it’s one after the other, keeping the rhythms. They can play one melody only, the diminished scales. They love this melody so much they dance and drink and have festivals to it. You can see small kids playing this. This instrument will never die. You give it to your son when they are four or five years old, so they it will never die. See the small one there? He learns from the father.«

RBMA: »Can the children choose what size they play or do they play what the father plays?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Usually what the father plays, because they teach them. Everybody in the area plays it, everyone.«

RBMA: »So if you specialise in, say, the low note, is that then your instrument? Can you switch around?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Sometimes, but usually just one. If you don’t like the small one you can switch to the big one. They can only play one tune. They’ve done some experimental work in Harvard University to explore how this instrument could be developed. There are two or three ways working on it now. The next part you’re going to see how this instrument can be played combined with guitars and pianos. We’re planning to build small microphones to put inside the instruments. The other way would be to build three or four holes inside so they can play three or four melodies. Now they can only play one, and that’s it. The second part of it is how I expanded it. This next one is from the Aré tribes, they play jazz. These are very interesting tribes. Imagine how they can build jazz. That’s why we should respect them, they are scientists in sound. Probably in other areas you could find these sounds. I have great respect for them. As we go around you’ll find the one that sounds like a baritone and the one that sounds like a trumpet.«

(video plays)

»Now other tribes come in. Look at these very interesting instruments. This is the rhythm of the trumpet. The long ones sound like a baritone sax.«

(applause)

»So, from this music I learned about our scientists, what we call people from the bushes. It’s so great because most of the instruments we hear resemble trumpets, baritone sax. You hear all kinds of different sounds. It’s probably your first experience of seeing these kinds of instruments. Some of you maybe go to different media, maybe you’d find them in New York, maybe London. Some of these instruments are there for researchers. This is how they sound. Most of the instruments you see can only play one note, one melody, that’s all. I hope before leaving we come up with something very interesting on developed instruments. If you have any questions about these instruments, their contributions…«

Participant: »On the piece you wrote, the Western instruments and those from Ethiopia sounded quite in harmony. Which scale did you use for the bass?«

Mulatu Astatke: »There are actually on the diminished scales. So if you start at the beginning, diminish from G, go whole, half, whole, half, whole, half, then you get these scales. This is based in G.«

Participant: »But I don’t believe the African people were listening to Western tone scales when they developed these instruments. So do you think our Western music is coming from those tone scales rather than the other way around?«

Mulatu Astatke: »That’s a very good question and it’s what makes this music very interesting. Since these people come to this earth, they created this, then development comes. I don’t know who was first, I don’t know who started building these scales. But we studied jazz groups and different music schools, like Debussy, more complex composers, Bach, Charlie Parker, those people who were using this. When Charlie created modern jazz he used these scales. So that’s what we learn. But how, where and what, that’s what we’re trying to find out now. If these instruments were the first, then we say great for Ethiopia, great contribution to the world of music. That’s what we’re trying to do.«

Participant: »You talked about developing these pipes and flutes, and what you said about putting pick-ups in them reminds me of the congatronics that’s been happening over the past few years, in which some groups have been putting pick-ups on mbira and kalimbas. I was wondering whether within Africa people are aware of these regional differences and developments in music, if people in Ethiopia are aware of what’s happening in the Congo or Mozambique or wherever.«

Mulatu Astatke: »That’s also a nice question. Maybe you’ve heard of the Mozart 250 Years in Vienna. I went to Zimbabwe - and we have an mbira in Ethiopia, but a different type of mbira we call the tom, which you find in the Gambella regions. I had a chance to travel to Zimbabwe. In Zimbabwe it is called the mbira, which is an entirely different type of African piano. You have the bass in this hand and they play the top notes of the piano there. In my experience, of all African instruments, the mbira is the easiest to develop, because you can easily tune it to a piano. So what I did was get seven mbira players. I was with Peter Sellars - not the actor, but the one who does operas - I was in Peter Sellars productions in Vienna for the opening of the Mozart 250 years. I said this would be a good present for Mozart, an African piano. I went to this group in Vienna, and of course they have pick-ups on it, these are good pianos. I remember playing the piano and the vibe with the mbira bass player, which sounds like a Mexican bass. With the acoustic Mexican guitars, sometimes I hear bass when I play. We have contacts with some of the African musicians who try to develop things like that, so I have this conference in Zimbabwe where they try to develop the mbira. So I went there and to Vienna and that concert was really fantastic; people came there and the technique was different, we tuned it to the vibes and we did something together with mbira and vibes. And it was so nice. We have contacts, but not more African musicians exploring and doing research. This mina, the one you’ve just heard, is very interesting, because I don’t know how these people managed to hear and create these sophisticated scales. It’s not easy. I’m following it up and trying to work out how they developed these instruments. There are two ways, I’m thinking: one, acoustically, by putting in a few more holes, and the other by putting a pick-up inside and using computers for harmonies and things. You can do it through computers and small mics. Hopefully we’ll come up with something. But there are some great African instruments which can be developed. Those tribes contributed to more developed instruments, I think. So the only way we can prove this is to research and research. I hope that answers your question.«

Participant: »I wanted to ask you about your transition from being an African with a more spiritual connection to the music into a European classical training at such an age. How did you handle that, or did it effect you at all?

Mulatu Astatke: »Most of these instruments you see from different countries have also been developed and they’re doing beautiful things on them. I know how are our instruments worked backwards. So I have this goal: why can’t this instrument play like a piano? So the transition between the two doesn’t affect me so much because I have this aim of improving the instrument, improving the players. From that I’ve learned to go back and teach, for them to study. This transition doesn’t affect me because I have goals to go forward. Everyday I learn something. Then you look back home and say, how can I do this there? So it’s a beautiful and interesting life.«

RBMA: »You mentioned some of the unique instruments. There’s a video you brought with footage of you playing the electric piano along with some traditional instruments like the krar, I think it’s called. I wonder if we could watch that.«

Mulatu Astatke: »OK, I’ve been trying to upgrade the one you see with the strings, and it was a bit difficult because it only plays five tones and four modes. So I was working on it, trying to upgrade it to twelve tone music. I upgraded the string, adding more strings without losing the shape and the playing techniques. I can only play melodies with no accident, which means I tune up once and you can play something without accidents. The problem is if there’s an accident, that’s the challenge. The experiment was like 60-65% successful. It was OK, but not 100%. So how would I manage to play twelve-tone music without changing the shape of it? We’re working now to play on mechanical machines where we only use the top part for the tuning. Now this instrument, when you’re only playing one melody for that mode, when you go the second mode you have to stop and retune. Now you find a way, just playing four modes just by touching a knob. That we managed: you press a knob, it changed modes. But the real challenge is how to play twelve tone, that’s what we’re really working on, how to expand the notes. We’re working on that now. I want you to see my experimental work, Never On A Sunday, with a krar.«

(music: Mulatu Astatke - Never On A Sunday)

(music stops while they find the right track on computer)

»That’s the scale, from five we play eight notes now. It’s also using a krar bass. This one is the krar playing in the middle. It took a long time to train the krar player because he’s used to five tone scales, so I have to teach him the eight tone scales, different scales, so he could get used to the sound. (inaudible question from participant) That’s the whole idea, because usually we play more traditional Ethiopian rhythms. But with this one, it’s a developed krarr, so this is what we call Ethio-jazz.«

Participant: »So how did you expand it, did you add more strings?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Three extra. But if there’s an accident in the melody, that’s a problem. So this is the first experiment. So people manage to play Mercy Mercy, Summertime, Guantanamera (laughs / changes video). This is also another very interesting tribe (searches for right video). So if we manage to develop this I think it would be great. Most of the Ethiopian musicians are going over to the guitar, because with these instruments they get stuck, they cannot go any further than five tones. We’re trying to develop this so we can play whatever the guitar does. That’s what we’re trying to do now.«

(video starts)

»This is Guantanamera on the krar.«

(music: Mulatu Astatke – Guantanamera / applause)

»The next one is Mercy, Mercy.«

(music: Mulatu Astatke - Mercy Mercy / applause)

»Thanks. So most youngsters here are in the music business, and you’re exploring, researching, trying to do something, it’s very nice. This kind of work will probably make you go back in again, do a lot of research and come up with something new. So if you have any questions on that we can discuss them.«

RBMA: »You also host a radio programme in Ethiopia?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Yes, I’ve had a show with a famous station for four years now. We play jazz, Latin, African, classical and World and Ethiopian music. The idea of the radio station was to teach people music so they could grow familiar with music from elsewhere in the world. It was more educational programming than entertainment, so we talked more about the differences between composers and how classical music is put together, the forms. We talked about jazz developments and also World music. I think it has educated a lot of people in the country.«

RBMA: »What kind of reaction have you got from listeners?«

Mulatu Astatke: »Always when you start something you have problems, especially with jazz, which is really new to the ears for them. The soloing part of jazz, they just don’t understand that at all. They think everybody just gets up and blows whatever he likes. So I have to explain what I want about changes, what the improviser does, the musical forms, this and that. It took me quite a while but I managed to get a lot of listeners. Even the classical music, I was so surprised. A lot of people don’t understand classical music, because it needs the culture, it needs the education to understand and follow. Since most Third World countries don’t have education in music, education in high schools, elementary schools, it was very difficult at the beginning. But after three or four years we had a good audience. Four years, six years, fantastic. I was really very encouraged because I was educating a lot of people. The national radio stations stop at about 11.00, but mine goes up to 12.00. So five, six, seven million people a day listen to my programme. It finally became very successful and I’ve educated a lot of people with it.«

RBMA: »So now you’ve received this fellowship and you’re staying in Cambridge, Harvard. What do you particularly hope to accomplish? Are you staying there for a year?«

Mulatu Astatke: »I’m going to be there for one year and I’m writing a book on what Ethiopia has contributed to the development of art. We haven’t talked about church music and its contributions and I’m also writing an opera, which is based on music made in 380 AD by our great composer Saint Yared. There is this conducting stick which was used in 380s, but there was no symphony orchestra. The ceremony usually takes about three hours, so the priest uses the stick to rest sometimes, and also to conduct music, especially in feast times. So that movement, which you’ve probably seen in the military band majors, about 70% of it is found on this conducting stick. So it’s like the diminished scales. Also, the similarity to the conductors of the symphony orchestra, only the position differs. If you put the conducting stick like this (holds finger in front of nose), it’s similar almost to that one. If you have the time I can show you that movement a little bit. This opera I’m doing is going to be conducted with this stick, so I’m using a string quartet plus two electronic synthesizers. That’s one thing I’m working on, plus development of the krarr, so I’m involved in three projects, plus I’m lecturing. So I meet very interesting people, a lot of scientists, great intellectuals. Everyday we have meetings, present papers and discuss the papers.«

(video starts)

»So this is how we conduct properly. We’re trying to find out, since there was no symphony orchestra in 380, what is what, what we have learned from each other (gets video to the correct place). This is our church, which is built out of one stone, the church called Lalibela, it is so beautiful. It’s built from one big stone with beautiful architecture.«

(music - unknown)

»This is how the chanting goes. This was composed in 380 AD. This is part of the opera I’m doing. It’s going to be extended, but this is part of the movement. All this is connected to the words. We also have musical notations, which look like this (holds up sheet of paper). Maybe you can show them around. This music was done in 380 AD, so we had Japanese musical notations, European musical notations and this. So the Ethiopian was the earliest, but it hasn’t really developed because it hasn’t been used outside of the church. They were so strict they didn’t want it to go out to other parts of the world. So this opera is opening up, we are starting to use this and I figure why not write a melody with these sounds. That’s another challenge.«

RBMA: »Great, I’d like to give anyone else a chance to speak up if they’ve something to ask. We’re going to listen to a bit more of some of your Ethio-jazz as we’re making our way out.«

(applause)

Mulatu Astatke: »Thank you, thank you.«

(music: Mulatu Astatke - unknown)

Mulatu Astatke: »Thank you again, I hope you have learned something from this. So I say keep on exploring and come up with something new. Thanks very much.«