Session Transcript:
Stephen Mallinder
Red Bull Music Academy, Melbourne 2006

The video stream for this lecture can be watched here.

From tape loops and smashing up pianos, to meeting New York's nascent club cognoscenti, to Chicago house pioneers like Marshall Jefferson and Lil’ Louis, it's a uniquely crooked path that Stephen Mallinder has wound since forming Cabaret Voltaire with childhood friend Richard H. Kirk in the early '70s. In this couch session, Stephen breaks down how he went from a grimy industrial town in the North of England to cruising ‘round Chicago in stretch limos while still producing some of the most uncompromising art dance noise that made it onto wax. A dose of surreal theatre, for real.

RBMA: »Today we’re going to be rewinding ourselves back to Sheffield. In the industrial North of England, in the late 1970s, punk had burst through and dance music was kind of not really as we know it. Electronic dance music hadn't really happened yet, and Cabaret Voltaire, of whom Stephen Mallinder was a founding member, started making electronic music. They went to New York and go on to work with Arthur Baker and Afrika Bambaataa. And then also went to Chicago in 1980 to record with Chicago house folks like Marshall Jefferson and Ten City. So we’re going to start now by talking about, what was happening musically around you when you were starting a band?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Hello (tests mic)! Whoa, that’s quite loud, isn’t it? Good morning everyone. Hope you’re all right. Everyone is looking a bit frazzled. Nice to meet you all! (applause) Thank you. Aha, headphones, thank you very much indeed. When we started making music, which was about 1972/’73, it wasn't really music, we weren't really into it, because the type of music that existed at that time was very much a chart music. It was very kind of pompous. And I would imagine that the bands, who were around that time were Yes, Emerson, Lake & Palmer and that kind of music, Queen or whatever, that came from that period. So there wasn't a tremendous matter we were into. Rich[ard H. Kirk] and myself had known each other since we were about 12- or 13-years old. We were actually skinheads. We met at football matches and we were soul boys. So we used to go to soul clubs from we were about 13 or 14. So our actual grounding in music was black music. We were both working class kids, we grew up with that. And anything else that was in our world at that moment, it didn't really matter to us. But kind of around that time, I suppose the tail end of music we were into, was Roxy Music, [David] Bowie, things like that. Glam rock stuff was kind of interesting to us. So it broke that mould, so we went from sort of being soul boys to being interested in different kinds of music. People like Brian Eno were a massive influence on us, because he was actually integrating things that were non-musical and that appealed to us. We didn't really wanted to be musicians, the idea of being technically proficient or learning a traditional instrument was kind of anathema to us.«

RBMA: »So you as a band came together kind of to the point, where mainstream music was pretty pompous, pretty boring, pretty mainstream, but there were these artists coming from the outside, like Bowie and Brian Eno, who were doing stuff, and Roxy Music, who were doing stuff that was interesting to you.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah. I mean, the fact that you know he was a non-musician, he was playing Revox, he was playing VCS 3 within a rock kind of format. We were not interested in the musical side so much, but in another side. But we were 16-/17-years old, so you know, Roxy at that time, if you lived in England, when they first appeared on Top Of The Pops, we thought they fucking landed from Mars. They did look completely different, so that appealed to us. And when you're at that age, you're more interested in exploring, you know, margins rather than mainstream, so we got into it.«

RBMA: »I definitely, at some point, want to take you back where you were a 13-/14-year old boy, hanging out in soul clubs in Sheffield, which is an interesting parallel to what we had yesterday with Skream. You know, the whole thing about being really young and getting into music, definitely gives you a certain edge when you're making stuff. But before we talk about that, you just mentioned something about musicianship being an anathema to you. That your way of doing things wasn't about being super proficient at piano, it was about something different. So this is kind of punk/DIY, isn't it? Your idea, you don't have to have piano lessons all your life to be a musician.«

Stephen Mallinder: »We did once, but I mean, this was before, this is back like four or five years before punk happened. We did, we did actually find a piano, but in true kind of anti-art tradition, we didn't actually play it. We miced it up with contact mics and then smashed it to pieces with a sledgehammer, and recorded it. And we used that for about three years. We go banging it. It was an extreme version of John Cale’s prepared piano, we kind of completely destroyed it, we didn't prepare it, we just fucking demolished it. “Ah, so that’s what we’re really into.” Because the other side of it was, we were fascinated by the whole dada thing, this is where our name came from.«

RBMA: »So, could you just kind of give us a brief background on the band Cabaret Voltaire took their name from a dada club night in Zürich, right? So what is dada?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Oh, dada kind of came just before the 1st World War, and it was really, I guess, an odd movement that really held itself up against the pomposity at that time, sort of the traditional art world, galleries, etc., and against kind of bourgeois ethic in art. So we saw massive parallels with what we were listening to in music, or what we wanted to do, so it was an easy fit. It was probably a quite primitive way of doing it and taking the name literally, but we weren’t that old, so it seemed an obvious thing to us. Particularly nowadays people know about dada and all surrealism, etc., but not many people were aware of it. You know, we are living in the knowledge society, so it’s quite a well-known thing. But at that moment, in time of the '70s, people weren't really that aware of it outside traditional art circles anyway. So plagiarising, that seemed quite appropriate to us.«

RBMA: »So how did the band start?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We started literally taking that [Brian] Eno ethic, we just used to buy tape recorders. We used to make tape loops, we got shit loads of tape recorders. We used to lug them into this attic, which was the pain in the ass, ‘cause some of the tape recorders used to get back then... It's interesting electronic music, at that moment in time.«

RBMA: »So we're talking 1978?«

Stephen Mallinder: »No, 1974 then. This is about ‘73, ‘74, when we first started. And, if you wanted a tape recorder, you used to go to these trade magazines, called Exchange & Mart in England, and basically they were old government machines. Ex-World War II, military stuff and you buy them for like about £5 and they weighed about two tons. They were fucking massive things, you know?«

RBMA: »What did these things look like?«

Stephen Mallinder: »They were like big lumps of metal, you know? They were like enormous kind of industrial-type looking machines. We used to get all things like that ‘cause that’s where electronic music really came from. People now look at it in terms of Robert Moog and Leon Theremin, etc., but a lot of electronic music and stuff we were doing, actually, it came really from Second World War technology. It came from the whole notion that war obviously does do crap things, but they do certain things and accelerate certain aspects of technology. So we were picking the things that really were probably used in a war. We got these, you know, really 20 or 30-year old machines, lugged them up to the attic and made tape loops and things like that.«

RBMA: »That’s an interesting idea, isn't it? War as a motor of modern music.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, completely. Well, it is, you know what I mean?«

RBMA: »Plus, war invented the internet...«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, I mean, that’s right. Kraftwerk resulted from a German culture from the post world war period. So you got to remember electronic music is quite affected culturally by those things and we were as well, you know?«

RBMA: »So basically, it’s you and your friend Richard H. Kirk who kind of went on to record electronic music with Warp Records, as Sweet Exorcist among another things.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah.«

RBMA: »You and him, you're teenagers, living in Sheffield, pretty grimy town in the North of England...«

Stephen Mallinder: »Uhhh, you make it sound so nice, he, he, he.«

RBMA: »Mhmm, it’s a great place.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Ha, ha.«

RBMA: »And you decide you want to make some music with this art aesthetic, so you decide to buy kind of job lots of these tape machines. What did you start doing with them?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Erm, well, we used to use the tape machines partly for loops, partly for tape delays as well. This is the time before echo machines, which is a common thing now, but in that moment of time we used to use sound on sound and tape machines for the delay. So we used to use it for that. Chris [Watson], who was the third member, he left earlier on in the piece, but Chris was an electronics guy, that was his job, he built a synth for us. Our first synth was the synth that he actually built, that we used to make ourselves. It was a DIY aesthetic. It wasn't something you went down to the shop and bought. You know, we were actually corrupting hardware that was there in our every day lives to make music or make sounds.«

RBMA: »In the early period when you were working out what your sound is, was there someone who you kind of you were trying to emulate?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Erm, no. I think we literally wanted to annoy. In the very first instance we wanted to actually use sound almost like a weapon. We found the shock of sounds taken out of context fascinated us. I mean, we used to do mad situationist stuff, you know? We’d construct tape loops and have them on tape machines. Just go into shops and play them. People were queueing at the bus stops and we just blast them with tape loops and things like that. We were fucking bored, you know? We lived in Sheffield! Like you said, it’s a grey industrial town. We were making our own entertainment, particularly at that moment of time.«

RBMA: »It's funny ‘cause that’s something the KLF kind of did very well in the '90s. But give us an example, what happened when you stood at the bus stop playing tape loops to bemused people?«

Stephen Mallinder: »People used to think that we were freaks. We were actually on BBC really early on about the '70s and they just thought we were complete lunatics. But that’s where we came from and there was no outlet for that kind of music. When I think the first things we ever did, ‘cause we used to make films, we used to do collages and things like that. One of the first things we ever did was a performance piece for the Edinburgh Festival and we couldn't afford to go. So we sent a tape up that they had to play. There was a Super 8 film that they showed, there was collage kind of the material that went with it, so there was the whole performance. Well, actually there was instructions to super glue people to the seats, but they didn't do it.«

RBMA: »There is something I'm a little bit confused about, or maybe I haven't quite got the link. How did you go from sort of being 14-years old soul boys at the terraces at football matches to being quite heavily into avantgarde art and music? How did that happen?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Erm, I don't know, really. Richard went to art college. By that time, 1974, I was studying philosophy and politics. So we got the other side where we were pretty working class, you know? Richard’s dad was kind of high up in the communist party. We were actually from that background, you know? The notion that working class people are thick and they don't want to do anything, we hated that, so we quite liked the idea that we are kind of sound terrorists as well. So, I guess, it was just a growing up thing. We never lost interest in popular music. So, I guess, we just morphed into that as an age thing as we were doing it, really.«

RBMA: »I mean, there is a funny thing, there is an interesting thing about class and British music. That idea that working class kids are thick and don't want to do anything is still pervasive now. You can see that in all sorts of artists. I don't know, it’s probably not the right place to talk about it, but it’s an interesting thing for another conversation about the way it has influenced British music. There is really a lot of interesting music that’s been made by the kids, who weren’t supposed to be doing well, who weren’t supposed to be doing anything, who've gone on to do really incredible music.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, and I think there is a belief through class that people then automatically move to popular form and that’s the only thing that satisfies them. Mass music or mass culture, but that’s not always the way.«

RBMA: »So basically, the missing link between your skinhead terrace soul boys and your kind of situationist people, who were blasting people at bus stops with music, is the fact that you went to art college and university. So, it’s basically during your student days that you were starting doing this kind of stuff.«

Stephen Mallinder: »I think we were just interested in things. I think anyone who goes through life, even these guys, whenever you came from you are all here because you're interested in things, you want to find out more, we wanted to know more. And to be fair, you know, people like Eno and Bowie when we were at that stage, that turned us onto William Burroughs, Brion Gysin, you got into John Cage, you got into all this kind of stuff, Cornelius Cardew, etc. So that was actually a window to a whole other world. And for a brief while we were actually associated with quite serious sort of avantgarde musicians, who came from the Stockhausen and John Cage era. We were quite involved with that. We kind of got booted out of that, ‘cause we were... Well, we did a performance, when we were completely drunk, and we were ostracised by these serious musicians, so we didn't fit anywhere. These serious avantgarde musicians, this side of music, the French composers. We were ostracised ‘cause we turned up and did a performance blind drunk. You know, we kind of liked that idea of not fitting anywhere. We just wanted to make our own space and that’s what we were doing.«

RBMA: »So let’s bring this up to your first release. And interestingly, you had your first release on Factory Records, a very influentual…«

Stephen Mallinder: »That was the second actually, yeah.«

RBMA: »OK, so an early release on Factory records, that went on to release records by New Order and other people. And also Rough Trade, a kind of original British independent music label. So let’s talk a little bit about those records.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, well. The first one was on Rough Trade. We were the first actual domestic release on Rough Trade. They brought out Augustus Pablo - Mr Bassie. They licensed stuff from Jamaica and they licensed an EP by a French punk band, called Metal Urbain band, who were like a punk band with a drummachine, which I thought were really good, actually. And then we were the first release that Rough Trade actually had, which was an extended play. So I think we’ve kind of been forgotten in the mist of time, but we were the first domestic release on Rough Trade. I guess, the link there was that punk happened, and even though we weren't a punk band, it did open doors for us. It did give us contacts for what we were doing, so we started playing around that time. We started to be able to play gigs. And that’s what happened. We had a lot of support from those people like Richard Boon, who's the Buzzcocks manager, we did the Buzzcocks tour. We did a [Siouxie & The] Banshees tour. We got thrown off the Banshees tour.«

RBMA: »Why did you get thrown off a tour with the Banshees?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We were too difficult. It was too hard, I mean it was just a practical thing. Because we weren't making music or actually just doing stuff in a live way people weren't used to it. I mean, people now can rock up with the laptop and do whatever they want to do and integrate it with the live instruments. But at that moment in time sound engineers were like: “Where’s your drum kit?” “We haven't got a drum kit.” “Where’s your bass cabinet?” “We haven't got a bass cabinet, we just DIY it.” And they were like: “Oh fuck, we don't understand this.” So we think that’s why we got kicked off. Maybe we got kicked off because we were crap. We actually shared it with Human League and they did a few more days, so...«

RBMA: »OK, so we can imagine what Human League looked like on stage when they were touring with you, but what about? So you're saying you didn't have a drum kit and you didn't have this, what did you have on stage?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We used to actually use cassettes, we used to prepare loops. We used to actually make specific sets, as the rhythm was based around tapes. So we used to use those as drum tracks, and construct those for various things. We had about two drummachines that we used to use live. We used bass, Rich played guitar and Chris played keyboards but we processed a lot of it as well. And I used to have a primitive vocoder that I used to sort of do vocals through. So I mean, nowadays it probably wouldn't seem that bizarre, but at that moment in time it actually did, yeah.«

RBMA: »So this is late '70s?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, this is about 1970s. Well, the first EP came out about ‘78. By that time we had a fair number of things written about us. John Savage was probably instrumental in a lot of things. John Savage, I don't know if you know this guy, but I mean John Savage was a famous writer in England, wrote England’s Dreaming and did a lot of stuff. But John was very supportive and so he actually got us a deal with Rough Trade. He just badgered Jeff and said: "You should bring out the Cab stuff."«

RBMA: »Well, shall we have a listen to something from this era?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, we should. That’s Nag Nag Nag, isn't it? So yeah, play that.«

RBMA: »So we got Nag Nag Nag, which actually interestingly went on in the same way as you took your name from a nightclub in Zürich, was taken by the nightclub in London, in sort of about 2001, which kind of pioneered us again to some type of bizarre nightclub music. Anyway, let’s listen to it.«

(music: Cabaret Voltaire - Nag Nag Nag)

Stephen Mallinder: »You get the idea.«

RBMA: »He he, we get the idea. So what kind of reaction did you get from people, when you rolled up on stage doing this kind of thing?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Staging by this time, we probably were less sort of confrontational. Well, not less confrontational, I guess we put it in the space that was more acceptable in terms of performances and things like that. And that particular track was done more for the joke than actually anything else, ‘cause it is complete rip-off of The Seeds track. On the first album we did a cover of a Seeds track. The Seeds being a '60s sort of Californian garage band. And it's just real straightforward sort of, you know, verse, chorus, versus, chorus. We didn't want to bring out The Seeds track as a single, so we were like: “We'll do our own version of No Escape.” So we did. And we wanted to record it straight with Jeff. It was done actually really to go well. That was probably the most accessible thing on the album. But we never believed in bringing out singles from the albums at that point, so we just went and recorded that. And it was more as a lift from a kind of, you know, '60s garage sound. And again that’s kind of very contextualised by punk in the sense of that that really was done at that moment in time. Really, that angled our stuff into what was going on, in the musical scene at that time.«

RBMA: »There is a story passing through legend, about you being dragged off stage by disco fans and beaten up because they didn't like what you were doing. So tell us what happened?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Actually, the fun thing was - and this is what was even weirder - they were actually environmentalists. That was way before this. That was about 1975. These people, who were like an equivalent to Friends Of The Earth, they were having a fundraiser and they just said they want the band. I don't know, it wasn't me, it was Chris and Chris must have known one of them, and he said: “You got a band, Chris, haven't you?” Chris went: "Yeah." And he went: "Can you play disco? Can you play funk?" "Yeah, of course we can play disco, we can play funk." When we turned up playing tape loops and sledgehammers and things like this, they were really pissed off. More because we said, "Oh yeah, we can play disco," so they went: "No, you can't play disco," to all these environmentalists and, I guess, they shouldn’t have called us. And yeah, it was a big fight and I got pushed off stage by a couple of people and it’s, you know, one of these things. We didn't mind, we were quite happy to annoy people. Like I said, that was before this period. It was the first gig that we did, but we were just happy to annoy people. These are the consequences of pissing people off sometimes, you get batted for it, really.«

RBMA: »So I want to just take it back a minute to this thing about releasing records on independent labels; how important it was for you to work with independents rather than the majors?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Well, firstly a major label wouldn't have taken us anyway. We certainly wouldn't wanted or been capable of kind of adapting what we wanted or what we were doing for commercial kind of purposes in that sense. It was important, you know? That whole independent thing, even if there’s been a massive history about independent labels through soul, etc. At that moment in time it was representative of the music culture in Britain, so we were really lucky, you know? We did stuff with Rough Trade, the early stuff. We did albums for them and then we were on Factory Records as well. It was just because we wanted to work with people, just like these guys. You know, you work within a kind of supportive environment. And I don't think we would have ever felt signing initially at that moment to EMI or whatever it would have been sympathetic. You worked with people who were supportive of you, people like Tony Wilson and all those guys who wanted to do it. You were pushing against a whole culture and a whole industry. That’s what you wanted to do. So we were happy to do it.«

RBMA: »You just mentioned Tony Wilson, who ran Factory Records, and opened The Hacienda in Manchester. If you're thinking about that period, where does Cabaret Voltaire fit into Manchester music? Which kind of again went on to become a massive influence on dance music and everything what happened since.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Well, because where we were from. I mean, it was only 50 miles from Manchester. Even from being quite a kid, I used to go, Rich and I used to go to clubs in Manchester, when we were really young. I'll tell you that Manchester is only a suburb of Sheffield and people from Sheffield will tell you the same. So it's not that dissimilar. So we were always going over and playing. We played at Russel’s club lots of times. We toured loads with Joy Division, we played loads with Joy Division. So we were just part of the whole thing. The reason we didn't do an album for Factory was ‘cause when we were getting ready to do an album, Tony didn't have enough money. And Jeff did, so it was who had the money to bring it out. We did one release on Factory, one on Rough Trade and then Rough Trade had the money to bring the album out so we did Nag Nag Nag and the album with them. Just ‘cause Tony was strapped for cash. And then they put their money into Unknown Pleasures and Joy Division did their album instead. It worked out really nicely.«

RBMA: »So you probably know, Joy Division went to become New Order, what was it like touring with Joy Division?«

Stephen Mallinder: »It was fucking hilarious, you know? Ian was a great guy and they were all great people. We were friends with New Order for a long time. Again it’s just a music community. People now see New Order or Joy Division as these iconic acts, but for us it was just people that we knew. I was big friends with the [A Certain] Ratio and all that stuff. Music now has expanded so much that there are so many pockets in music of so many areas, but at that moment in time there weren't as many bands around and there weren't as many people making music. So you were naturally gravitating towards each other. So you naturally did gigs together and naturally you knew each other, really.«

RBMA: »OK, so let’s get back on the Cabaret Voltaire history train. When did you go to New York?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Funny thing was we didn't go to New York until the early '80s, I don't think. And in fact, by the time we'd gone there, I think Sensoria kind of topped the dance charts there. Arthur Baker, John Robie on Yashar and so on. We went there after the records that we did were actually successful in New York.«

RBMA: »OK, so you had some New York hook-up’s before actually going to New York. What happened? How did you hook up with Arthur Baker? How did your music start sounding more obviously danceable?«

Stephen Mallinder: »It kind of links with the idea of looking for margins and looking for space where there were interesting things happening. We were never really musically sonically part of the punk thing. We didn't have any affinity particularly with that. We still were kind of very linked with club music in that sense, reggae and everything, that’s what we were interested in. That moment in time, in the early '80s, in the very early '80s, that’s where the interesting things were happening. When Planet Rock came out, that was something really different to what was happening. We were always interested in that. I think we were just naturally drawn to electro, naturally drawn as well to the 12" format. We were very much into repetition and loops and keeping things going. And all of a sudden, it became a format, which was more en vogue, that suited those kind of things. We were never into the four minute single. We were not bothered about radio play, so therefore you want people to access your music. And all of the sudden, there was a kind of porthole into a world that wasn't driven by the commercial considerations.«

RBMA: »Where did you first hear about Planet Rock?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I can't remember, actually. It’s really interesting. I mean, all that Grandmaster Flash stuff. I guess, you were just interested in music and you buy on import. And it would have been very early days, when we found all that. And I think we were just listening to music and just dug the stuff out. We just found it in the early days. And at the very same time that that happened, we were obviously pushing the idea using the drummachine using breaks and things like that. And it became reciprocal. John Robie heard the track of ours Yashar and it was just when he was doing Planet Rock and he just got in touch and said: "I really want to do a mix of this track." And we went: "Yeah, alright."«

RBMA: »OK, so it wasn't you hearing the music and then searching out people in New York?«

Stephen Mallinder: »No, No.«

RBMA: »It was electro people in New York heard your records and got in touch with you?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, I can't remember in an actual fact. I think it was from Barney and Hookie and Tony 'cause they knew Arthur Baker at that point, I can't remember. ‘Cause John Robie heard the track and we did that actual track for Factory and I think it was just a sample, Robie liked the sample and said: "I really want to do a mix of it."«

RBMA: »So how did you sample back then?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I'm trying to think, that was from TV. So it was actually put down to tape reel-to-reel. Everything we did was with reel-to-reel. And it was literally laid down and we would be using an eight-track at that time. So you would literally drop in and drop out. You would lay samples like that. You know, it was very physical. It was a very kind of tactile process.«

RBMA: »So you say it was very physical and tactile process to use tape in that way, what actually did you have to do?«

Stephen Mallinder: »You literally ran one machine and dropped in another and hopefully you hit the beat. And once you mastered it, you started editing and, you know, chopping on a tape. And so you actually do tape edits. Everything we did was tape edits. And that was a massive skill on its own, in its own way. Sometimes you have a track that was six minutes long. And there would be hundreds of tape edits in it. You literally would be chopping it, chopping it and chopping it. You might start with a track, which was 20 minutes long and edit it down to a 6 minutes track, like cutting into it and doing it that way. So it was very physical, yeah.«

RBMA: »And you mentioned drummachines as well. What were you using?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We just used to scour music shops. ‘Cause the reason drummachines were around was that before there was satellite TV, people used to play organs. And people used to play along, it was a big thing in the '70s. If you lived in the suburbs, as well as the record player, you'd have a home organ. And people would play along, and they would have rhythm machines to play along with it, that played the bossa nova. Grandma, you know, would play along to bossa nova.«

RBMA: »This is kind of family entertainment?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, and we used to pilfer for these drummachines, that’s how we used to do it. We had loads of them at one point, you know? So we just used to use those. So we used those mechanisms for rhythm. We did use drummers and we used them on all the albums. By the Yashar time we were using the live drummer anyway, the drummer and the percussionist. There’s no drummers in here? ‘Cause drummers were an unbearable pain in the ass, when we used a lot of drummers, so we just used a drummachine. Sorry guys, if there are drummers here.«

RBMA: »There are some drummers, yeah.«

Stephen Mallinder: »I love them all, I'm a closet drummer anyway so…«

RBMA: »OK, so it would be good to hear the track you’re talking about. Yashar or Sensoria.«

Stephen Mallinder: »I don't know if Sensoria is here, actually. Thanks for Phil Branson for bringing me some music down, ‘cause I think this is John Robie. This could be interesting...«

RBMA: »So this is the track...«

(music: Cabaret Voltaire – Yashar)

Stephen Mallinder: »I think this is the original mix that Robie did. I now remembered why Robie wanted to do it. A lot of the vibe for the track, the keys that we did, we used kind of Arabic scales and he was really into it. And he thought of the idea of doing something more of electro, even if we did the breaks like that on it originally. That’s why he was attracted to it, so anyway, that’s that.«

RBMA: »So where did your music fit in the whole scene that was happening in New York at the time?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I have no idea, really. Although it was very funny when we went and played at the Palladium in the early '80s. We were soundchecking, we looked out there while we were soundchecking, and there were just loads of people, kind of breaking to us. Then we kind of realised the way we fitted into it.«

RBMA: »So the same way Kraftwerk obviously kind of were in there, Cabaret Voltaire were in there too.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah. For a period it was, yeah.«

RBMA: »So tell us about what happened when you went to New York then?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We just did gigs over there. I mean, we didn't actually record in New York. We did some stuff with Robie in the studio for a little while, but we worked in London with Robie, he flew to London. You know, we said: “Oh great, we’ll go to New York to record,” and he probably went: “I want to go to London and record.” So we actually did more stuff in London with him. I mean, we did quite a few tracks over there. We just literally played and did our stuff over there. So,, I guess in some ways we were quite detached from what effect we had. We were kind of living there doing it. We spent a fair amount of time in New York over a period of years, but at that moment in time we just went did couple of gigs and came back and that was it. You know, and you'd go to clubs and stuff like that.«

RBMA: »You just mentioned sound-checking at the Palladium and looking out and seeing people breakdancing. So what were you doing? What other sort of experiences did you have like that when you suddenly realised that your music was somehow kind of in the hip hop canon?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Like I say, it was really strange. We just opened a window, really, but it wasn't something that we massively exploited or anything. It was just something played there at that moment in time. We used to go and play, you know, go to the clubs, Danceteria club or whatever. It was more of the social thing for us. We didn't go over there like some sort of ethnologist or anthropologist going: “We found these interesting people in New York, I think we'll work with them.” It was just more organic and that, so we just did stuff did our own shit and they got into it.«

RBMA: »I mean, these clubs that you're talking about, Danceteria, The Palladium, they were really key clubs at that time, you know? Give us a window into what they were like? What were their clubs like?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Danceteria was really funny, actually. It used to be four floors with an open lift. I was always terrified to fucking fall down the lift shaft. We even saw Madonna in there, when Jellybean was playing in there. It was kind of funny actually ‘cause clubs are clubs, you know? Particularly that people look back on it, obviously hindsight is an amazing thing when you go out and you go: "Wow! We were hanging out in these clubs." But at the time it was like: "Let’s go have a drink," and it was a place to go and you'd go down and you'd hang out and it was fun.«

RBMA: »So what they were playing at Danceteria in the early '80s?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I can't remember what it was when we were there. I think it was a time when Jellybean was there, but I can't remember. It was very Latin, it was very electro. It was all 808's, you know? Coming to the '80s it was all 808's by that time.«

RBMA: »This is Jellybean Benitez?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, you know, New York was mad in those days. New York at that time in the mid-'80s was crazy, you know? Some of the areas clubs and things like that you would go to was quite mad, you know? It was that sort of glam scene that was there. A bit arty, you know?«

RBMA: »Any other New York night life moments you'd like to share with us?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I met Andy Warhol once. It was a cliché, though. He was actually with Bianca Jagger. It's like, ‘Fucking hell!’ I thought it was stunt, man. I thought Andy Warhol’s just standing there in the club with Bianca Jagger! But it was actually him, yeah.«

RBMA: »Were there any others New York hook-up’s that happened to you during this time?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I mean, to be quite honest, we just went back and did our own thing after that. We weren't there constantly, because we were based in England. We were recording, we were touring in Europe, we were gigging around Europe and doing all that. I'm trying to think. Probably next time. We used to go back to New York a little bit, but the next time I started to get involved, I actually went to New York trying to find Todd Terry. This is a little bit later. I couldn't find him. He didn't answer his phone. So that’s how we ended up in Chicago, so that links to Chicago, actually, 'cause by the late '80s obviously we were interested in all that, that was what fascinated us. And in that moment in time, when Todd Terry started doing some stuff, the Frankie Bones period and all that, we really wanted to work with Todd Terry. But he never picked up the phone. And in the meantime while I was there, I hooked up with Marshall [Jefferson] and then we ended up in Chicago and one year later we were doing stuff in Chicago. So it was a strange kind of connection. Probably, my New York days ended at that moment in time.«

RBMA: »And the Chicago days started. Before we talk about that and the whole sort of late-'80s house period, let’s just go back a little bit. Because there was a period when the music got overtly dub-influenced and you worked with Adrian Sherwood’s On-U soundsystem. Tell us a bit about him.«

Stephen Mallinder: »How did I meet Adrian? Well, prior to Adrian we did three albums from Flood. I don't know if you guys know Flood, U2's producer. We actually did quite a lot of work with Flood. Adrian came after that. So we did quite a lot of work with Flood. Flood did actually all that electro stuff with us, Sensoria and all those things, so that was the period when we were working there. The reason we worked with Adrian was we left Virgin. We were with Some Bizzare and managed by the guy called Stevo [Pearce], which was a crazy period of all our lives, ‘cause it was brilliant. Stevo looked after us, Yello, Soft Cell, The The, [Einstürzende] Neubauten, that was kind of very interesting period. That’s when you were saying, talking about New York and things like that, there were probably as interesting things going on in London, where I was living by that time so…«

RBMA: »So those were the bands you had the same management with, Talk Talk and…«

Stephen Mallinder: »No, The The, sorry.«

RBMA: »The The. Were there any musical exchanges that happened between you guys?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, Dave [Ball] from The Grid & Soft Cell. Dave and I did a band and Dave played on some of our albums and I played on Marc Almond’s solo stuff. I played with The The a couple of times and Zeke Manyika was drumming with them. In London it was kind of an an interesting time around then, there was a lot of things going on at that moment in time.«

RBMA: »Is there anything you can play us from that period?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Shit. No, I don't think so. Hang on, but there should be something in there, shouldn't there? Let me find something. Talk amongst yourselves guys. Ha, ha, ha, ha! There is a Kevorkian dub, which was done around that time, that was the track we did with Flood and Kevorkian did a mix of it. Do you want to hear that?«

RBMA: »What is the track called?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Sex, Money, Freaks.«

RBMA: »So did you meet François Kevorkian in New York?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, we did actually. We did meet François in New York. We did work with John Longo, who was a DJ around the time, one of the first DJs who kind of were getting involved in the production and we were working with him in New York. By this time, actually, we had left. I think it’s about another 48 bars before the bass comes in! I tell a lie, this is the track we did with Adrian, Kevorkian mix. I mean, we wanted to work with Kevorkian ‘cause Kraftwerk worked with him and we were big Kraftwerk fans. And we thought he is the only producer that Kraftwerk would work with. He is literally the only person they would work with. So we went: “We would really like to meet him,” and he was really cool and he knew all our stuff. I think François did about three mixes for us in the end over the period of a year.«

RBMA: »So where did you meet him?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Just met him in New York. I mean, François is great, he is a dude. He lived there and he lived there with his family. And we would hang out, all that kind of stuff. People probably would like to imagine that it’s some sort of amazingly nocturnal debauched scene and all that. But no, we just met François in a kind of social situation. He is just a lovely guy and it was great, you know? But at that moment in time he was probably not as known as he is now. But I mean, it was great for us, we liked him. So we were really happy that he had done stuff for us.«

RBMA: »So let’s talk about the kind of house stuff you did, ‘cause it’s quite interesting. You went to New York to find Todd Terry. What turned you on to Todd Terry?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I mean, I loved the very first Todd Terry stuff. It was very cool. I loved the way he just jammed on the samples and things like that. So I guess that was, at that moment in time his very early stuff, I thought he was doing very interesting things.«

RBMA: »What records are you talking about exactly?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I'm trying to remember, actually. The early Todd Terry stuff. I mean Bango and all that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously this was kind of early days just as Shoom and places like that were starting. I mean, I’d been going down to Danny and Jenny's club and all that in the early days so...«

RBMA: »Basically you were coming down to Shoom, this is a particular club in London.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Shoom was really where, I suppose, the acid house started. In that sense when they brought it all back from Ibiza and the whole thing. But I mean, that was interesting (laughs), there was a number of people who said they went to Shoom, that if they did actually go to Shoom, you'd fill Wembley Arena ‘cause you could actually fit only about 50 people in there really at the end. But you know all that kind of stuff was filtering through. The early house stuff and things like that.«

RBMA: »And that was kind of a very dark, sweaty, stroby club. Again, it was a kind of back-to-basics club, wasn't it?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, it was a fitness center, the one, the original down the London Bridge. But I mean, that wasn't the only club. I mean, Cafe de Paris had been going for a while and that music started to filter through to clubs that were actually happening in London. And Todd Terry stuff was there as well as the early house stuff.«

RBMA: »So you got turned onto early house stuff. What kind of music were you making at this point?«

Stephen Mallinder: »That kind of stuff, really. That probably was around that time. That’s probably bridging into that period.«

RBMA: »So you go to New York to find Todd Terry, ‘cause you were into what he was doing. Todd hasn't got his phone on, but you meet Marshall Jefferson instead. How?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I can't remember the guys name. He was head of Atlantic Records in New York and he said: “Marshall is in town you should meet him.” And that’s how it came about. Marshall hated flying at that time. He actually flew to London, we had some meetings and we kind of sorting it out. It took about a year, I think, to sort it out at the end. We did some basic pre-production stuff and then went to Chicago and lived in Chicago for about a month and worked with Marshall and all the guys over there.«

RBMA: »So who are exactly the guys you're talking about? Who did you meet?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Oh, I mean, that was like a little clique of a lot of people. So, I mean, Ten City, Kym Mazelle, ‘cause they were all managed by sort of same guy. I mean, Paris Brightledge was on the album, who worked with Sterling Void. You know, Lil' Louis, not Vega, the other Lil' Louis. People like that. So you know, we just sort of spent a little bit of time there. In the middle of winter it was freezing but it was fun. And Marshall is a dude, you know? He's such a great guy.«

RBMA: »He is a funny guy. So did you sample the influences of Chicago nightlife at this period?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, you know, it was too cold to go out too often. But yeah, we went to clubs Lil' Louis was doing and things like that. But it was really, we'd go out with Sleezy D, Mike Dunn and all those guys, but it's kind of interesting ‘cause we were English and we were white and it was entirely black sort of culture, really. And people were lovely to us and it was great. We had a great time, yeah.«

RBMA: »I mean, a lot of those records still sound insane now. If you'd listen to Sleezy D - I've Lost Control, they are just crazy records. They must have sounded incredible on the big soundsystems in the kind of warehouse parties that were happening, no?«

Stephen Mallinder: »My fun memories actually, stuck in my head, actually going to the club where Lil' Louis was playing and he did play the version of his own… They all played their own versions and he did play the version of French Kiss that would have gone for about 20 minutes with trains and airplanes and everything going through in a really fucking small club, but on a really fucking boss sort of soundsystem. You sit there and going: “A fucking train just passed in the middle of French Kiss,” and you'd go: “Wow!” Yeah, they were pretty mad, those clubs. Yeah, we were really lucky to have a look inside those clubs at that time, yeah.«

RBMA: »’Cause I saw him DJing in Hacienda, probably around 1990 and his set completely blew my away. When he did all that, with lots of effects going on, he played some crazy sort of glam mellow jazz band at the end, which was absolutely insane. He was doing things other DJs really, really weren’t doing. But yeah, so which clubs you were going to?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I can't remember, I wouldn't have a clue. They were just clubs. Marshall didn't go out very often.«

RBMA: »He was a kind of professor who plays computer games, isn't he?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Oh yeah, Marshall is mad as fuck. Marshall wouldn't go out, apart from a couple of times. We said: “Come on, Marshall. We got to go out.” So we would just hire a stretch limo and we would just cruise around Chicago and go to clubs and this, you know?«

RBMA: »In a limo?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, we had the full... We actually did a video, we went back and filmed. When we did Hypnotized we went back to Chicago and we shot a video in Chicago and we got everybody in it. It was loads of film, we kind of documented at that point. But obviously they were doing very well by that time, yeah.«

RBMA: »So, you made an album with them. Have you got something to play us from that record?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Got some stuff on vinyl, I think, hang on. I'll tell you what, I will play Hypnotized. It was kind of more commercial by that time actually but let’s have a look. I'll play Gerald's mix, actually. I mean, this got Ten City on it, it’s got Kim [Mazelle] on as well. I'm not sure, but this one Marshall did. It was an interesting kind of thing, ‘cause we were doing a lot of work with Robert Gordon and Mark Brydon. Robert Gordon is Forgemasters on Warp, and Mark Brydon is Moloko. And we did a lot of recording with them, did some of vocals over in England and, you know, we had Ten City working with us. Strangely enough, a lot of vocals we did was Ten City in England. We did it in Sheffield and we mixed it there and then we went back to Chicago. So it’s done in strange kind of piecemeal way.«

RBMA: »So the mix that you're talking about is Gerald’s mix?«

Stephen Mallinder: »This is A Guy Called Gerald mix, yeah. I haven't heard this for ages, so let’s have a listen. This will be nice for me.«

RBMA: »We established that the avantgarde route is never going to make you a lot of money. Obviously, money is not what it's all about, but why have you sort of stuck so strongly to that aesthetic? What is it that appeals to you about it?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I think that you’ve got to live with yourself. You have to make music that reflects you as a person, as a personality. I mean, I grew up with popular music. I don't have a problem with it. It's not an issue with me. But it's kind of not, a) what I was capable of making and, b) particularly wanted to make. And to be honest with you, that’s the reason I eventually came to Australia: to make albums, purely to pay the rent and to eat. Which was fine, which was alright, but then I just had this thing when I didn't want to make music, I even didn't feel like making music in those terms. I just wanted to make music purely and I wanted to make it myself. And not feel as though it was a career, and it has been a career for more than 20 years. I was quite happy to go “hmmm.” I don't want to have those commercial or financial pressures put on me, ‘cause I felt it wasn't the reason I started making music. That’s why I went back to that.«

RBMA: »So what did you start doing when you came to Perth?«

Stephen Mallinder: »(laughs) I stopped making music, ha, ha. I’ve actually done this there, and I’m kind of alright doing that. And I set up Off World, the label Off World Sounds, which was... I suppose, it was probably indicative not of the market but of the music culture that existed at that moment, and how its changed. I mean, we brought out, I think Off World has had 15, 16 whatever maybe more releases, but as a pieces of vinyl, we don't sell anything, you know? It reflects probably the infrastructure in Australia, the fact that I live in Perth and it’s miles away. So it makes it difficult in Australia to operate in those terms. But also the way the whole music culture has changed. And obviously now, you know? We think about just doing a new album and we just go: "Well, do I even want to release it as a CD, or is it just downloads?” You just let people have it.«

RBMA: »Can you play us something from the label, or something that shows us what is happening?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I'll tell you what, I'll play Sassi and Loco, which is the stuff that I did. And I think that sold in total about 300 copies, so here you go. Don't do the label, guys. I'll just play, ‘cause I don't know what’s on here.«

(music: Sassi and Loco - unknown)

RBMA: »So what drives you musically now, then?«

Stephen Mallinder: »(laughs) Well, that was just Sassi and Loco, that’s just my stuff that I did couple of years ago. I'm still doing the Ku-Ling Bros. because I kind of enjoy the social and cooperative thing about it doing music, so I mean and Ku-Ling has always been like that. It's chiefly myself and a guy called Shane Norton, who did Soundlab, and our guitarist Jack. There’s been times when we played with about 11 people on the stage and sometimes just two people. I suppose, it’s just an act that works in progress. I suppose we change the way we perform or the way we present it with the change of circumstances. But musically, I don't know, I'm still... You just fuck around and you just... Music is still a matter of juxtaposing, sort of sounds and rhythms and actually seeing what operates view. I like the Ku-Lings purely because it’s an input from a lot of people and I enjoy that now. I don't particularly, I am not that bothered about going: “This is the world according to my life.” I like the social aspects. I'm involved with other things, so music then can become something that I enjoy doing so I just do that.«

RBMA: »So if you think about the stuff that you're doing kind of at the beginning, you and your peers were doing, what do you think has been the biggest impact on what you did then on music or what's possible today?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Well, I mean, it is kind of arrogant to sort of say: “This is what I did, what we gave to music or what I gave to music.” So it is really in other people’s hands to see, sort of really a test to that. I suppose we were part of that process of democratising music. We were part of that process saying, you know: “You can do it yourself, you know? You don't need that level of proficiency. You don't need to go into the studio and spend thousands of dollars.” If you want to make music and you do have ideas, we will continue with the pushing for people to actually take control of that process of making music, actually getting it out there and really sort of following the whole thing through. You know, the independent labels, people developing, I mean - and that’s what we did. When we got an advance from the record label, we didn't go and spend it in the studio, most of the time we just used it to increase our own studio. So we went from a 4-track to an 8-track to a 16-track to a 16-track studio. We just kept re-investing our money. Obviously now, that was an analogue period, now it’s a digital age and so therefore you know the whole process has been democratised. I guess, we were just a part of that, really.«

RBMA: »So I guess maybe the key point is you don't have to have the shiniest, glossiest, flashiest studio. You just need like an attic full of tape machines.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, and I suppose the other thing is everything is valid with the context of music anyway. Probably the other thing we did, we were one of the first people to sort of… again, that’s arrogant, but sort of integrate found sounds, use TV sounds, spoken word, things like that. Basically, integrate your environment and particularly the media environment into the music and the sounds you're making. It was a part of it, it was just a reflection of us. If we heard it on TV, it was just as valid as the vocals or the keyboards to us. So we kind of managed to integrate those in there.«

RBMA: »So the guys like Herbert, who was sampling packets of crisps and, you know, dropping spoons...«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, god bless him, good old man, yeah.«

RBMA: »Absolutely, but you know, sort of 20 years before that you were smashing up pianos and using those sounds.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, I mean, we are all part of that whole chronology, you know? Matthew is obviously doing it his own way, we did it our own way. John Cage, Brian Eno, they are all part of it. I wouldn't like claiming to any of these things. I think it's just everybody puts together their own version of the musical world they want to create and that was ours. But ours has never been purely limited to music in that sense. We used sound, sound is as interesting to us as music.«

RBMA: »I mean, I know that you're obviously still involved with music and you're still making music. You got your label, radio stuff and all these things, but if you detach yourself for a minute as a consumer and fan of music, can you take the long view, and tell us what pleases you about music in 2006?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I think what I find interesting about music in 2006 is that 2006 doesn't exist. Time is irrelevant, you know? Like Eno said: “As soon as music became recorded, then time seems to exist, space is the only parameter.” And now, probably because of the communication, space doesn't really exist anymore. So the here and now in 2006 is irrelevant. We can make whatever space we are in, we can create it from any time or any space. So it's kind of the morphing of time and space. You know, everything is accessible now. I'm not saying it’s the end of history, like people are saying, it is interesting that it’s all there, you know? Sort of the music that we all buy, we are looking for new sounds, etc., but it’s made from something that is 30- to 40-years old but also maybe something that Skream made last week. I find that fascinating, I find it really fascinating.«

RBMA: »So what sort of music, what sort of artists you are feeling?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I mean, again it's really hard, ‘cause I could probably go, everything from Zero dB to an old soul track that I probably bought or whatever. So again, it's not something I would say, this is the newest thing I’m listening to. I don't have it. I don't have any rules, parameters like that.«

RBMA: »So that’s the living body mass of interesting things today. The gap between old and new has been broken down. So it doesn't really matter whether it’s old or new, or cool, or not cool, rave or soul. It's all in front of us, isn't it?«

Stephen Mallinder: »It's all happening now. It always will. It will continue to happen.«

RBMA: »Kind of maintaining this vantage point of looking at what’s happening now. What disappoints you about music now?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Well, I stopped DJing, ‘cause I'm fucking pissed off with people who have grown up. I was just talking about this the other day with Lorna and Mark Pritchard with iPod culture and people. It’s what we’ve just been talking about, people want to hear things as they see them. Almost like DJing has become irrevelant. They just want to hear what's in their head at that moment in time. I got really bored of DJing so I don't really DJ anymore. That’s probably my experience in Perth. I stopped doing it. I mean, I still play occasionally. I think that probably everybody thinks they know everything and in that sense people are closing their ears and their eyes and I don't think you should do that. I think, if somebody is playing a piece of music and people are making the piece of music you should fucking pay respect and listen to it and not go: “Excuse me, can you play this or can I listen to that?” I think they’re dangerous people and that is one of the other problems - we are the generation that looks down. We’ve atomised our lives. It's part of the technology, it's part of digital world we are living in. We atomised our music experiences we brought it completely to ourselves. I am interested really in breaking that into more of the social mould. The social part of the way we hear music should be really encouraged a lot more, rather than a generation-why, closed[-minded] looking-down, atomised existence.«

RBMA: »So you are basically saying, kids, take out your iPod ear plugs and go to a club and hear some music there. So you hear the music as a shared experience rather than just your own personal soundtrack.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, I'm pissed off sitting in the car talking to my kids, and after five minutes they haven't responded - because they’re both listening to completely different tracks on their iPods and mp3 players and you just go: “Well, that was a waste of time, wasn't it?” But that’s cool, it means I can listen to the stereo in the car and they don't bug me, so it's cool.«

RBMA: »OK then, so to finish up, what’s next for you? What’s happening?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Just doing a new Ku-Ling Brothers album. There was still a few things I was still going to play ‘cause we did a track on the Shaun Ryder album and I never got a chance to play that. I’m just doing that. I mean, at the moment I’m writing, so I got about 10 months left of my doctorate to do, so I am writing on that. So I kind of shifted a little bit writing about sound as much as listening to sound so that’s kind of where I am at the moment, I am kind of doing that. Music’s still important. I get really irritable if we don't go and make music! So I make sure I get a day a week in the studio. And that’s my kind of musical contribution and that’s just for me really, more than anything else. But yeah, new Ku-Lings album should be finished by the end of the year and it took about 18 months to do. So that’s what I am doing, yeah.«

RBMA: »Have we got any questions from anyone here?«

Participant: »I thought it was really interesting like the progression of using noise and sounds to what you have now. Can you talk about your creative process now? Where you are getting your sounds from? Are you still using abstract kind of sources?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, I mean to be quite honest, the source probably is not that different, it's just the process. The processing is different, really.«

Participant: »Like really distorting stuff?«

Stephen Mallinder: »I find it a lot easier to utilise sounds and chop them up and mash things up in ProTools or Logic, like it was when you were just using tape machines. It allows a more certificated process but at the same time the sounds we are using are probably not radically different. Just on the first Ku-Lings album we used a tap dancing solo from a 1930s jazz film and sort of environmental noises. And that’s probably what we would have done in the '70s and '80s. But the thing is you can get it to sync up, which probably is the only difference. The technology that we now have really has an impact on the way we use those sounds. That’s the only difference, really.«

RBMA: »Anything else?«

Participant: »Hi, you were saying earlier that you were doing things in your career that people weren't doing at the time and you weren't really accepted. How do you deal with those kind of insecurities at your work and things like that, how do you deal with it?«

Stephen Mallinder: »We didn't really have insecurities, I think. Maybe for the solo artists it’s probably a little bit harder, but when you're a band you kind of have that collective consensus that you believe in what you do, so you get that mutual support. So it didn't really worry us. And also in some ways any reaction was a good reaction. We didn't see the negative in anything, you know? We were trying to be transgressive in those early periods, therefore a reaction was good. No reaction would have meant we hadn't actually achieved anything. So we didn't mind if people sort of responded to what they saw in a negative way, ‘cause we took heart in that anyway. It works, because we were trying really to affect people and make some kind of impact there. Whatever way we saw it, it was working. And when it’s two or three of you in the group, you know, you're equal and you're able to go that’s fine, that’s cool. We think it's OK, and as long as we think it's OK, then that’s cool.«

RBMA: »Did I see someone else? Any other questions or are we done?

Participant: »Here is one more. You mentioned a question, how do you see your contribution to the world scene or whatever? So, my personal opinion would be whatever you have contributed to the musical scene, you have the most stylish covers, Cabaret Voltaire is the most stylish... I mean, many designers and fashion people have used it so many times, so at least in this area you contributed a lot.«

Stephen Mallinder: »We were obviously packaging, that’s the thing. I mean, we did music and, like I said, in the early stages we also used to make our own films. We made Super8 stuff, we did all that. We were very involved with that side, because we felt that the visual representation was just as important or it was important to support the sounds that we were doing. So we took a lot of consideration in what we were doing. And it was lucky because again, I mean probably around the time, probably really early '80s, a guy came to one of our gigs and he said: “I'd really like to,” he was a student at the London School of Printing and he said: “I love the music, can I design the sleeve for you?” And we went: “Will you do it for free?” And he went: “Yeah, alright.” And that was Neville Brody, who designed The Face. So we became good friends. We were lucky that we had those things. You know, I guess it was just the right moment. You know, music is chance and causality. A lot of things kind of intend to happen. Some things are pure accident. And meeting Neville at the gig was one of those things. Again, Ian Anderson from Designers Republic, they hadn't done anything, you know? When we knew him he was in a band and he just said: “Can we do the sleeve?” And they are just mates from Sheffield. It’s Designers Republic that do all Warp and everything. So we were lucky because we actually didn't have to go: “Can you design stuff for us?” We just had people who were really cool and we were really lucky to get the benefit, you know? To benefit from their kind of contribution. So yeah, we were lucky like that.«

RBMA: »So that’s kind of point two of the master class: maximise your hook-up's.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Yeah, be very careful though, ‘cause it don't always work. Sometimes some things there is a chance you... I mean, Pete Saville when we did one of our first Factory Records, wanted to design our sleeve and we said ‘no’, we didn't really like his stuff. But we went like: “Actually, Mal’s doing that,” and I did the next sleeve, so how crap is that? I turned down Pete Saville, and did it myself with a bit of letraset. That was pretty shit, wasn't it? But I'm sure, you know, Pete is a great guy. You know these things happen. When we ran Double Vision, our label in England, Sonic Youth wanted to sign to the label and we went: “Nah, I don't think so.” (laughs) He, he, he - you know that’s really shit, we should’ve probably done that, shouldn't we? Ha, ha, ha, ha.«

RBMA: »I suppose these things happen, don't they? It's good chance things happen but there’s bad chance too.«

Stephen Mallinder: »You do things that are comfortable for you and feel right for you. So that’s the way it works. You should know yourself better than anyone. So you just do that.«

RBMA: »OK, so if there are any more questions? OK?«

Participant: »Your early stuff particularly had a pretty big influence on the California Hardcore scene. Did you ever get into those records?«

Stephen Mallinder: »Not particularly, no. Just like I said, it wasn't something that we really considered, no. It was just one of those things... You mean what, the kind of heavy stuff that came out there?«

Participant: »Yeah.«

Stephen Mallinder: »No, not really. I mean, some of the Canadian bands like Skinny Puppy and all those things we were influenced, but strangely enough, we found that a little bit, too, what people called, industrial. I suppose, at that time we were more into the stuff like Grandmaster Flash and all that stuff and they were going that way. So we probably wouldn't have been good, we never had those rock influences despite playing Nag Nag Nag. We didn’t really have rock influences. It was one thing we weren't into, you know? It was the thing that didn't work for us. For me, the ultimate rock band is PiL, Public Image, you know, and they were about the destruction of that rock kind of iconography. So, no I didn't... You know, I respect them and it’s really cool and that’s great and at one point we were going to do some stuff with Sub Pop and I respect all that, but it wasn't really ours.«

RBMA: »OK, I think that’s it. So Stephen Mallinder, we would like to say thank you very much.«

Stephen Mallinder: »Thanks guys.«