Equiknoxx and Shanique Marie

Christine Kakaire

Thank you everybody for coming. As I said before, we just need to remind you to turn off your phones. There’s no photos and no filming during the duration of this talk. Thank you again for coming. Of course, this is the first of four Red Bull Music Academy lectures that are happening as part of CTM Festival 2018. Here we have our first special guest on the couch. Self-described forward-thinking Jamaican collective Equiknoxx from Kingston, Jamaica. Please help me welcome them. [applause]

I think one of the reasons why Equiknoxx are here and have the profile that they have now is that you find yourselves in a pretty unique place. You’re this collective that’s a record label and production house, that is at the center of this hugely popular and influential dancehall sound from Jamaica. You’re working with superstar acts like [Capleton and Beenie Man and Elephant Man], etc. At the same time, you’ve cultivated this really quite avant-garde or experimental approach, particularly in the creation of riddims and that’s earned you comparisons to the likes of Lee Scratch Perry and King Tubby. Hopefully throughout the course of this conversation, we’ll have a little bit of insight into how these two sides of the Equiknoxx universe come together. Yeah, so first of all, from the left, we’ve got Jordan Chung here, AKA Time Cow. In the middle we’ve got Shanique Marie. And Gavin Blair, AKA Gavsborg. Thank you so much for being here, looking forward to jumping into this chat with you.

The first question I wanted to ask, actually, was, in preparation for this, reading particularly about the last few years of releases and a lot of the music that has kind of brought you to a bigger audience, this idea of Equiknoxx making dancehall weird again. It’s this phrase that I keep hearing repeated over and over. My question to you is actually did dancehall ever actually stop being weird? Or is this a view that’s kind of coming from outside of Jamaica or outside of the scene?

Gavsborg

I think on the popular front of it, it had stopped being weird. It started to get very, very… Very what people consider how popular music sounds in this day and age. That’s the type of direction that it started to take. Like in the ’90s, the ’80s, and so on, it was weird and it was popular, you understand. Now it’s just popular.

Christine Kakaire

Right.

Gavsborg

Right.

Christine Kakaire

Yeah. In terms of that kind of popular chart-topping sound, you also have crossed paths with some of these artists who have become huge superstars within Jamaica and outside of it. In terms of the entire breadth of the music that you’ve created, like in amongst your collective and also working with other people, how much of that is apparent or kind of present for you when you’re making music? Is there a sense of, “We kind of need something that’s going to be a “Coconut Jelly Man,” that’s gonna kind of be able to reach out to a number of different people.” How do you strike that balance between things that are a little bit more experimental and things that have, you know, so called cross-over appeal?

Time Cow

That’s for me?

Shanique Marie

Yeah that’s for you.

Time Cow

I don’t really think about it that much. It’s not that intentional. When it gets intentional is when we’re doing way more writing, and we just really have to correct here and there. Yesterday, we were walking in Paris, and Gavin was ahead of us. Me and Shanique were walking, and Shanique was saying, “Well, my hair’s getting curly again.” I find out we tend to this, we did it in Mexico the other day as well. We made a song about having curly hair, so it was good.

Shanique Marie

Girls with curls.

Time Cow

Girls with curls and swirls and things [hums melody]. Yeah. What we do now in the after process is tend to like, maybe just correct some lyrics or just something like that. It’s really about like, what we see and just, like everyday things. It’s not really, “OK, alright, we need to sing a song about the coconut jelly man because they’re really underrepresented in Jamaica.” [laughter]

Shanique Marie

I think just to jump in, I use this word every time we have an interview. I think that’s because it’s the realest word is to describe what we create. Everything that we do is very organic. As Jordan said, we’re not going into the studio like, “Hmm, this is what’s hot. Let’s create something,” or, “Hmm, we want to be weird. Let’s think, what could be weird?” It’s the energy and the vibe that exists in the moment. We are a group that creates things based on passion and just emotion and how we feel. I might go into the studio and I might be joking around, and I might just do a, “Ahhhh.” Gavin is recording it. Jordan is recording it. Then there’s a riddim they build and it sounds like a door in it, you know? That’s really how everything comes together for us. I think that is what makes our music so appealing, because it’s us.

It’s real, and it’s what we are. It’s not something that has been created in a lab. It’s natural. I think once we don’t try too hard to say, “We’re going to do this, because that’s what needs to be done,” I think that’s when the universe says, “Ooh, I like this. Let’s push it out there.” The waves go out. The next thing we know, we have a “Coconut Jelly Man.”

Christine Kakaire

You just mentioned being in Paris today and kind of riffing on something. Is this process of making music for you, I’m curious to know, how does it actually work? Do you have a central studio in Kingston where you can all get together and it’s like a lab, you’re kind of bouncing off each other? I can see heads nodding, so yeah, I’d love to hear more about that.

Gavsborg

Yeah, we all have a central base in Kingston. It’s in Vineyard Town, it’s in east Kingston, where one of my legends is from, which is [Dave Kelly]. It’s a very special place to us. We all congregate there on a daily basis and do what we do here.

Christine Kakaire

Is that becoming more difficult now that you’re on the road more, that you’re traveling more, to be able to find that time to get together?

Gavsborg

Well, we’re together on the road. [laughs]

Shanique Marie

We’re together on the road, so it works out.

Gavsborg

It’s still good.

Shanique Marie

Oh, and I was just gonna say, for example yesterday in Paris, I think even more so now that we’re on the road and we’re traveling and we’re meeting people and seeing things and experiencing things, we’re right there with each other. We’re like, bouncing things off each other right as it happens. I think we’re even more so having things happen in real time. I think it works out even better now that we’re on the road.

Christine Kakaire

Right, and I’m assuming that this kind of dynamic between you is something that’s developed because you’ve known each other for quite some time. Can you let us know a little bit about how it all came together? I know that Gavin, it’s kind of a universe that’s revolving around you. It would be great to hear a little bit about how that came together with the core members of Equiknoxx.

Gavsborg

Well it started a very long time ago.

Time Cow

Eons and eons.

Gavsborg

Many moons ago.

Shanique Marie

Not that long, I’m not that old!

Gavsborg

Well, it started originally as a rap group in high school. I used to have aspirations of being a rapper. I was, like, into a lot of [Wu-Tang Clan] and that stuff. That was very my core for an inspiration was from. We all wanted to be rappers, and this was about in fifth form, I don’t know how you call it here, if it’s the 11th grade.

Christine Kakaire

Yeah, yeah.

Gavsborg

Right. Then high school pretty much ended and then some of the members moved on to “real lives.” [laughs]

Christine Kakaire

Right.

Gavsborg

You know, working in corporate Jamaica, going to university. I didn’t do any of that at the time. I was just about the music. Over the course at that time, there was one member called Jimmy the Toucan and he migrated to Canada and wasn’t able to be active in the group as much as he used to. Then funny thing is that a very good of his that we all went to school together, was Wolmer’s Boys School actually in Kingston, he returned to Jamaica from studying in Canada. So they kinda traded places. This person is called Bobby the Blackbird, which is still a member but not on the road with us at the moment. And then Bobby Blackbird and I had similar interests. We saw things similarly, so we continued with Equiknoxx.

Over the next couple of years… We’re actually at 2005 now. Over the next couple of years, other people came on who shared interest. And they left as well. We’re all the way to 2009 now and Shanique…

Shanique Marie

2005.

Gavsborg

Well, I first met Shanique in 2005 on MSN Messenger. She… [laughter]

Shanique Marie

I’m not that old.

Gavsborg

She was still... She was not of age yet to be doing anything really. But we spotted some talent through a friend of hers who was playing like a big sister, half-manager type of thing. She introduced Shanique to us. And Shanique was to come to the studio one night, and she came without Shanique. So I’m like, “Where’s this girl that you’ve been telling me about?” And she’s like... This might be embarrassing, she’s like, “Her mom says that she can’t come out, because she’s too young.” So, the link kinda died. And a couple of years after, in 2009, we were re-introduced by me doing a favor for a friend who was doing a commercial. And he was like, “Can you record a vocal for me?” And I’m like “OK.” It turned out that the person was Shanique, right? And now she was of age to operate…

Shanique Marie

I drove… To the studio. [laughter]

Gavsborg

She had a driver’s license. She drove to the studio. And then we just struck gold there.

And a few years after that now, there was this mystical character stalking me on MSN Messenger. And it turned out to be Jordan. He was sending me some tracks, and I was like, “What are these tracks?” [laughs] They were both... I was both repulsed by them, I was inspired. It was everything... Everything good, everything bad. I was telling him to change them. I was telling him not to change them. But what I spotted deep down was a very special thing in the tracks.

Shanique Marie

And the passion.

Gavsborg

And the passion. By then, I’d really decided that I was going to make my mom happy and go to university. I’m a little older than he is, and Shanique as well. We actually met up in university, University of Technology in Kingston. Alright, so we met there in person. I think I was walking along the hallways one day, and I got a text saying like, “I see you.” [laughter]

Time Cow

I see you.

Gavsborg

Right. So we met up there. And I was like, “That’s a cool kid.” And then we all just started making music together. And then by then, we had... Our MCs was more or less stable. Because we work with a lot of MCs, but there are a few who have a very special place. Shanique is one, and then another one is Kemikal. And over the next couple of years, it molded itself together as, “Hey, this is the team.” So it’s Shanique, Time Cow, Kemikal, Blackbird, and myself.

Shanique Marie

The Fantastic Five.

Christine Kakaire

That also. I also wanted to ask a little bit about how reflective Equiknoxx is with regards to perhaps soundsystem culture, production culture, in Jamaica, which, of course, has laid the groundwork in terms of all of these incredible petri dishes of experimentation going on. Is this something that you see as the spirit that you’re carrying on in what you’re doing? Or you are forging your own path in this way?

Gavsborg

Definitely, it’s in the spirit. You literally have no choice. The soundsystems are in the streets. So once you’re in the streets, you’re going to be influenced by the soundsystem whether directly or indirectly. And it’s either going to disturb the life out of you, or you’re going to enjoy. And we more or less enjoy. It’s just always there. It’s a part of the Jamaican just... It’s a constant background sound, the soundsystem. You hear it when you’re in your house. You hear it when you’re going to school. When I used to go to a religious place, I used to hear it while I’m in there. So it’s everywhere.

Christine Kakaire

And I’m also curious to know, is there a sense of purism in terms of how that plays out musically, if it’s such a present part of everyday life?

Is there a sense that it should be related more to a roots reggae sound? Or early ’60s, or ’70s traditional dancehall? Or do you think that an embracing of forward-thinking production and embracing other styles of music is also part of the Jamaican sound at the moment?

Time Cow

It’s always been a part of it. They’ve always embraced it. But the thing is that, Jamaica has created an amount of genres that has come out of Jamaica over the years. But they have come out with such speed and multitude that it’s like Jamaica has grown used to just getting it done, moving on to the next thing, moving on to the next thing. It’s not that they’re not great in any sense, but we just have a lot inside of us. Because of that same culture of just the soundsystem and everything. But it’s that... It might take longer or last longer in other places, it just doesn’t last that much in Jamaica.

But we try to always keep on doing it. Somebody has to do it. People are actually doing it... It’s just that maybe on the level that they are, it’s not... I don’t think the light has been shine up on it as much, you know.

Shanique Marie

I think also to add to that is Jamaican culture generally is like that. We are a fast-paced set of people and so we’re always rediscovering and moving and so, as Jordan said, things... There’s a quick digestive period. And then it’s rediscovery or more creation. I think a lot of that also has to do with how Jamaican people are as a people. As I said we are quicksilver people. I think that has a lot to do with why things aren’t necessarily marinated. And, yeah.

Christine Kakaire

I mean I’ve always had this sense of enjoying soundsystem culture, and what it represents. Because I love this idea of these family-type configurations. But within that, there’s this friendly rivalry as well. You’re only as good as your last rhyme or your last riddim. So is that something that also exists between you guys as well? You’re one upping each other and egging each other on to some degree?

Shanique Marie

Definitely, yes. Definitely, yes. I would have to say that we’re all very critical of each other. And we know that that is important, because we are one in three and three in one... Or five in one, rather, and one in five. We always have to push each other. And analyze what we’ve done or analyze our last performance, our last production, and reflect on it. Because we know that when we push each other, we’re pushing the group. You are only as strong as your weakest link. And it’s important for all our links to be as strong as possible.

Yeah, I do think that we’re always... For example, I performed last night, We performed last night. And when I was singing, I made a little glitch with one of the lyrics. I was hoping that these two didn’t hear, but they did. And after the performance, they were like, “Look, how you say the wrong ting on the stage?” Now of course, the audience didn’t realize of course, because I was smooth. But I... The whole time after, I was like, “They’re going to call me out on it man.” And they did. And it’s important you know, if you’re in a group and your group members aren’t trying to bring out the best in you then that’s not a group and as a matter of fact, were not even a group, we’re a family. And family means, no one gets left behind. I know you guys watched that movie, did you? Yeah, I see you. Yeah, we definitely make sure that we’re all… We’re like the geese. I don’t know if you know the story of the geese. When they’re moving or when they’re migrating in the winter time, there is often times one of the geese is at the front and they…

Time Cow

This is… [laughs]

Shanique Marie

Please, he did not excel in English! But they carry each other and the geese at the back constantly honk to make sure that the one at the front stays strong and then they switch places and they’re very, very unified and that’s how they all make it together. So I use that analogy just to say that’s how we all make it together and I think that’s how our productions and our performances come out strong and on top.

Christine Kakaire

That’s a nice segue into one of my other questions about birds, and bird sounds. Which has become something of a production signature for you. Where did this originate from?

Gavsborg

Well it started really in the beginning from just sampling just whatever. I would leave a recorder running under a pipe. Whatever it is. You know. We just didn’t want to use something that said Timbaland sample pack or [Neptunes] sample pack. And even if we did, which we, you know it all comes on experimentation, we try to make it into our own. It turns into something else. So naturally we came across animals, and birds just turned out to be the favorite one to sample. Then one day my mom was entertaining a friend in the dining room, and the friend was like, “What’s that bird sound that keeps coming from out of the room where your son is?” And then she was like, “Oh well his name is Gavin and… Got the name from Scotland and it means hawk. Or a little hawk man.” And it turns out that the sample I was using at the time was a hawk. So then it became some kind of special thing. So that was like…

Shanique Marie

Organic…

Gavsborg

That was like the stump for me to just push on with that. When I met Nick who is Blackbird, he was already Blackbird. And I was like, “Alright, cool. It’s a bird ting then.”

Christine Kakaire

It’s a theme you can’t escape. Well I think it’s about time to listen to another track. I think I’m going to select something kind of from your back catalog, one of your most popular rhythms I believe in Jamaica, which was “100 Stab” by Aidonia?

Equiknoxx

Aidonia!

Christine Kakaire

Aidonia. Let’s have a listen to that and then we will continue the chat after that.

(music: Aidonia – “Flying Dagger aka 100 Stab”)

That was “Flying Dagger aka 100 Stab” by Aidonia. [applause]

Gavsborg

Yeah.

Christine Kakaire

I believe that track is perhaps like 10 years old, is that correct?

Gavsborg

Yeah almost 10, almost 10. Quite a controversial tune as well.

Christine Kakaire

Yeah, yeah. And it’s funny though when you look up that track in particular on YouTube, there’s quite a few versions of it. But all of them have people like, “It’s 2016 this tracks still fucking me up.” People are crazy for it. I picked that particular track because I think it was a good indication of what I feel is a pretty big signature of the Equiknoxx production sound of taking one quite prominent element and looping it and stretching it, and really making that a central part of the track. So before we get onto the controversy, I’d love to know how did you come around to that type of signature, I suppose.

Gavsborg

I really don’t know the answer to that! [laughs]

Christine Kakaire

Or is that something you recognize as a recurring…

Gavsborg

Yeah, it really just comes. It’s a part of dancehall to have something that is repetitive, but it doesn’t bore you to death. You can listen to it for 15 minutes really because that’s how long you’ll end up listening to it, because it’s one riddim and then it has sometimes up to 60 vocal tracks on it. So you could be playing one riddim for two hours if you want. So it’s important that it’s something that is repetitive but still fluid where 60 different artists can come and hear 60 different things from it, engage in it in different ways without it being annoying really. So that’s pretty much the culture that raised us.

Christine Kakaire

And you mentioned the controversy and the first version of the track is called “Flying Dagger,” which of course relates to daggering, which is very controversial.

Gavsborg

Right.

Time Cow

It was banned

Christine Kakaire

Oh, it’s been banned?

Gavsborg

Yeah it was banned actually.

Christine Kakaire

OK, for the benefit of people who might not know was daggering is. It’s a very aggressive, very vigorous form of dance that’s very sexual. But it’s almost acrobatic. So what was the basis of it being banned? Was it like health and safety or is it more like a moral outrage?

Gavsborg

Yeah, it was more health and safety that the broadcasting corporation used as the measure for it to be banned. Because it was getting a bit crazy still, people were jumping off buildings…

Shanique Marie

Jumping of buildings to, it… Homework for you guys [laughs]. Go home, or while you’re sitting on the train, not while you’re riding your bicycles or anything like that, go on YouTube and look up dance videos, or street dance daggering videos, so you can have an idea of what this daggering is. So daggering the dance is… Symbolic of the sexual activity that some males and females in Jamaica engage in. It’s not your intimate, passionate, slow, I like long walks on the beach…

Time Cow

Vigorous…

Shanique Marie

… wine and Netflix and chill kind of thing. It’s more like, let’s get down to business kind of thing. But then there’s the meaning of dagger as well. And so the broadcasting commission felt as well... Because as you listen to that song just now, not knowing that daggering is related to a dance, you would hear “100 stab, 1000 juck.” You guys don’t know what juck is. I can tell you. If I juck Jordan with some [pushes him] OK, if I had something in my hand that was sharp and I went like that [stabs] to Jordan, that’s a juck. Which is basically the same as like a stab, so you could see why that would not necessarily be the best thing to be. So I think that’s why the broadcasting commission felt like that was a bit harsh, so they just banned daggering all together. But that song still…

Time Cow

Daggering had become a genre of its own.

Shanique Marie

Yes!

Time Cow

They couldn’t really stop it by any other measure other than to just ban it completely.

Gavsborg

The word itself was banded.

Christine Kakaire

OK, so like from television and radio…

Gavsborg

A funny story is that that song was in the local top 10 charts. So you’d be watching the charts and then you see the other songs come in and you would hear the songs you would see whatever visual they had attached on and that one would come on and then you would just see a blank screen and then put the name and edit daggering. You know it was like, “OK, well mamma have a song in the top 10 charts, but you can’t really hear it.” [laughs]

Christine Kakaire

And what about the performance of the dance as well? Is that also regulated? Does it have to happen in underground parties or…

Gavsborg

It still happens in the underground…

Shanique Marie

Not as much…

Gavsborg

Not as much, but…

Shanique Marie

I mean people were getting hurt, trying to do these things. Literally, people were jumping from the roof at a street dance. The girl would lie flat on the ground and the guy would jump from the roof and jump on her.

Gavsborg

And vice versa too.

Shanique Marie

And vice versa. And there were, unfortunately, some incidences where people got hurt. I mean, why would... Why would… Well, let’s not get into why. Stranger things have happened [laughter]. So that had a lot to do with it. But yeah.

Christine Kakaire

And that particular rhythm of that track, because it’s so... It’s almost like a polka or something. It’s got such a unusual rhythm to it. Is that informed by the dance? Or the dance informs that? Or it just kind of came together as it was?

Gavsborg

You know, what daggering was actually doing was it was taking from very old Jamaican traditions, from Kumina, from Bruckins. So the dance initially, from where it’s coming from, it’s really supposed to be something sacred, right? But because it’s 2009, 2010, and not so sacred words have been put to it, it changes. So you know, it was viewed…

Time Cow

Tearing apart at the moral fabric of the society. [laughter]

Gavsborg

So it’s really something that’s 300, 400 years old and that’s how far I can trace it back to.

Shanique Marie

Not the jumping off the roof part.

Christine Kakaire

That’s new.

Shanique Marie

That’s new.

Gavsborg

But the actual movements, it’s very old movements, you know? But I would say it kind of informed the… Whatever was happening in 2009. It was something, you know, centuries ago that was informing that.

Christine Kakaire

And you know, kind of fast forwarding a few years from there, and perhaps even before that period when dancehall kind of crossed over into mainstream pop music, artists like [Sean Paul], etc, and then another wave with artists like Drake and [Rihanna] and even Ed Sheeran... But I remember reading sometime in the last couple of years that a particular club in London was told by the police that they weren’t able to play dancehall because they’re reasoning was that having dancehall music meant that there would be a spike in aggressive behavior, and violence, and what not. I mean, what’s your kind of take on that? I just feel like there’s this idea that dancehall is... It’s seen to be such a threat to the moral fiber that even kind of outside of Jamaica, part of the Jamaican diaspora is still going to be effected by these negative connotations around dancehall. Were you aware of it, first of all? And…

Time Cow

Yeah. Well, dancehall as a art form is a art form that reflects what’s actually happening in Jamaica and it’s never been tried to be curved by any of the artists and any of the producers. It’s really just raw. And you get that rawness when you come to Jamaica. And it’s exported just the same. You know, but it’s not like this thing that they’re saying like, the lyrics, the violent lyrics saying, “Alright.” You know, “Gonna kill this guy,” this and that. It’s all very contextual, you know? So a lot of the things that they say, like Aidonia has a song that I like now called “Hot Tool.” So outta the context of Jamaica if someone comes to you and say, “Yo, you know somebody just have the hot tool,” you know you probably really wouldn’t understand what he’s trying to say.

So it’s really within the diaspora that something like that happens. I mean, in London you have people saying like “showerman” and tings like that. In Jamaica, you know, if some set of people from a particular political view said they were a showerman it wouldn’t really end well, you know? So it’s very contextual and people have to realize that. So you can’t just put like a broad ting on it and say, “Well Jamaican music is very violent,” and so and so because a lot of music draws from the violent... I mean, hip-hop draws from, like actual things that are here. Dancehall is drawn from actual things. But whereas... I mean, more of the world can identify with maybe hip-hop because of the terms they use. Jamaica is very intense and as I said, things move fast there so the words change, the terms change. All of that so it’s hard to keep up. But what you get is the rawness and, you know, I guess that kind of brings... That brings a rawness in the people as well. But it’s not that we’re going out and saying, “Oh, yo! This bad. Bad! Bad!”

Shanique Marie

You just wanted to do it back to me.

Time Cow

It’s not that kind of thing. [laughs]

Shanique Marie

I think that we know that music is a manifestation of people. Music is created by people. And there is always the binary opposites. There is always good. There is always bad. I think that, you know, with persons saying that dancehall incites, you know, violence in, particularly in the youth... It’s all across the board. Every genre has, you know, speaks to the good things and the bad things, the positives and the negatives. And music is very influential. We have no statistics to show that dancehall has influenced young people in a way that drives them to a point where they would act in a negative way. But I mean, it’s very possible that sitting down listening to some dancehall lyrics that says, “Yo, kill them all and done,” might, you know, might build fire in a young person. That’s, of course, has to do with a lot of other things. It would be issues that they would be, you know, going through on their own accord or whatever.

But it’s with everything. It’s with hip-hop. It’s with rock. It’s in all the different genres. There will always be someone who is negatively charged by the music. I think it’s unfair to, you know, to limit one genre to say, “This is it. Dancehall is what is causing persons to behave erratically.” But we knew of it. It’s something that we’ve heard over time. But yet, we must highlight and emphasize on the positives that come from dancehall. A lot of dancehall music provides a feeling of belonging and empowerment for the youth in Jamaica and within the diaspora. There’s a lot of dancehall artists who are putting out music that is talking about “Ghetto youths must rise,” and you know, “Just hold the faith and be strong.” And there’s a lot of young people I know that listen to dancehall music and it drives them to do their schoolwork. Or it drives them to go out there and get a job. Or it empowers them, the musically creative ones to say, “You know what? I can be like Equiknoxx who is out there, you know, seeing the world and impacting persons with their, you know, with their music.” So I mean there is the bad to dancehall as with any genre. And there is the positive as well.

Christine Kakaire

I guess on the flip side of that, there’s also a huge community of dancehall appreciators and dancehall creators who aren’t in Jamaica as well. Like I know that there was a particular connection with a crew in Poland who were pretty instrumental in kind of, I suppose, introducing you to a new audience in Europe. So what have some of those experiences been like, kind of traveling to different parts of the world and discovering these people who are like die-hard dancehall lovers and supporters?

Gavsborg

Yeah. I mean, Poland was... With an emphasis on Warsaw was actually the first place that we knew existed really outside of Jamaica in a musical sense directly to us. There is a guy that came to us through the studio called 27Pablo and he was like, “Listen. We have here a song that’s the number one song.” It was a song called, “Movements.” It was 2010 there. I was like, “What? What you mean by that?” Anyway, we started communicating more and more and he kept on saying, you know, “Hey. Come to Poland.” I was like, “Yeah. But to do what though?” I was looking at the plane tickets and I was like, “Do I really need to come to Poland?” [laughter] He was like, “Listen. You better come because we’ve just opened a lounge and we’ve called it Equiknoxx.” I was like, “Oh [laughs] Show me!” [laughs] So he sends a YouTube video and like a tour of the place and I was like completely blown away. And then immediately after that, one of the members of that crew got a tattoo, like across their fingers that said Equiknoxx. And I was like, “Alright, what’s happening here?” [laughs] “What’s happening here, now?” So we just released a mixtape at the time, and it was with a vocalist called Masicka, called Equiknoxx Introduces Masicka to King Tubby and it really struck a nerve with peeps in Poland. The same friend 27 Pablo is like, “Listen, you need to come and perform that mixtape,” and I was like, “But what do you mean by perform it?” Like, I’m not a performer, I’m a producer, stop that. And he’s like, “Well you can DJ.” I was like, “But I can’t.” [laughs] And what really happened was that it was 2013 and the performance was I think on Friday and on Thursday I was in Warsaw learning how to DJ. It didn’t go as well I wanted it to go, the first event didn’t go as well as I wanted it to go, but it still went very good. And then I think by the second event we were like already pros at it. [laughs]

‘Cos deejaying was something that we always wanted to do but we didn’t really get that chance to explore, we just didn’t see the function of it. There’s no like, duality in Jamaica, like the producer who DJs or the DJ who produces. You’re either one or the other, basically. It’s more seen as like a progression, like maybe you started out as a DJ then you progressed to a producer and then your DJ life is, another life, you know? Like you reincarnated to be a producer or something.

So, 27Pablo was the first person that pointed out to us that you can kind of do both, you know, it can actually work. We did it and it worked. Then we just kept on doing it really, and Poland supported and then we started seeing a lot of support from a lot of other places. I guess a lot of places were supporting but then we couldn’t really pick it up because, you know, it’s not the time of Instagram yet, or you know, so you’re lucky if you see a tweet from someone. Excuse me. Right, so, that’s where really started and then just it kind of spiraled into us learning about a lot of places.

Another core place turned out to be Manchester in the UK. Where there is a man speaking to me on SoundCloud, kind of anonymously. I just kind of knew that he was on to something special.

Time Cow

All the good people come into his life anonymously. [laughter]

Gavsborg

The name of that person is [Jon K]. He didn’t really identify himself as such. I think he just said his name was Jon.

Christine Kakaire

You’re very welcoming of anonymous people who reach out to you online.

Shanique Marie

He likes the creepy thing.

Gavsborg

There’s a ting with the words you can kind of tell by, you can kind of tell a bit of the intent with the words and if, hey, is this person going to waste your time or, means a lot of people would. [laughs]

Anyway, a few years after that, or, not a few, like a year after that, by then I turned friends with a young man called [DJ Samrai], who is also from Manchester. Who, a little deep in the friendship, he said that, “You know there’s a guy named Jon K that’s been checking out you guys stuff.” I’m like, “Alright, who is that?” He’s like, “He’s a well respected DJ in Manchester.” I’m like, “Alright, cool.” And he was like, “Yo, well, meet Jon.” You know, so, I met Jon and then I realized that it’s the same email address, and I’m like, “Hey Jon.” [laughs]

And then he started talking about doing an album, you know. I’m like, “Alright, cool, it’s cool.” But he was like, “Alright, but let’s limit the vocals a little bit.” I was like, “Alright, well let’s do that,” you know, we were rounding up the troops. And we did the album, that was Bird Sound Power. And you know while we were doing it, we didn’t really think much of it, we just treated it like, you know just something we were doing like everything else. It’s not like, “We’re gonna do an album and it’s gonna do this, it’s gonna do that.” And then the album was released. By then Jon had introduced us to [DDS]. We just had this long email thread going for like literally like one year, maybe like 300 emails. But yeah, over that period, you know we found out how deep of a love that the city of Manchester had for Equiknoxx. And then when the album was released, you know it was official, alright Manchester was like, second home.

Shanique Marie

And then we just met a whole lot of other people. I think if Gavin is really to get down into all the people that have become a part of the link, I think we need all five of the Red Bull sessions to really discuss this. But there are also some very special people in the room right now who have impacted us in ways that we didn’t know that they were impacting us from before. And we’ve come to realize, you know, how important and how special they are to us. One particularly, I won’t say his name, but he knows his self, he’s in here. Yeah so, it’s been the gratification and the support that we’ve gotten on the road. I have another friend who’s in here who, I don’t know how long it took him to get here from where he’s from, probably three hours, four hours? It’s been amazing! It’s been amazing just to think that we’re in Jamaica. I mean this is the era of globalization and technology, but we’re in Jamaica and there are people all across the world who are finding joy and happiness and purpose and meaning in, I wouldn’t even just say music, but in the art form that you have created. And then you get the opportunity to travel to these places where they are and you meet them and the connection is so genuine, so sincere, so real, and you realize, “My music did this.” You know, something I created did this. It’s an overwhelming feeling and the gratification is, it just makes, it gives us the drive to continue, you know and to do more, you know. Every time we travel we meet someone whether it’s in person, through our travels, or through, not instant messenger cause that no longer exists, but through Instagram or Facebook or SoundCloud or you know whatever platform is available and they reach out to us and that makes us feel so good.

And we feel so good to have all you people here to come out to listen to us chat. Especially me, like you must realize by now I love to talk. But to listen to our story and to listen to how we’ve, you know, come to where we are, we hope that, even if it’s not just music, but in some aspect of your life we hope that it will impact you in some way and you know, bring some light to something and engage you in a way that you know, you say, you know I listened to Equiknoxx talk at the Red Bull lecture, and now I feel like I can go and do that painting or I can go and make that outfit or I can go and cook that dish, or I can go and study that course, you know. We hope that it does for you what you all do for us.

Christine Kakaire

Oh, that’s a lovely positive message. [applause] I think this would be a great time to actually hear something off the Bird Sound Power album that came out on DDS records, which is the record label of Demdike Stare from Manchester. I’m gonna be selfish again and play my favorite track, which is the opening track called “Last of the Mohicans” and I really, I really love it because it sounds like an opening track. Like there’s this real sense of anticipation, and it has all of these hallmarks of dancehall, and then it kind of veers off into sci-fi film soundtrack, and I find it fascinating. So we could talk a little bit about that, after we play this. And this track is gonna be called “Last of the Mohicans.”

(music: Equiknoxx – “Last of The Mohicans” / applause)

“Last of the Mohicans” by Equiknoxx. So I believe that most of the tracks that made it onto Bird Sound Power were riddims that you had made over a pretty extended period of time. Is that right? It was something that was pieced together you and Jon K and Miles from Demdike Stare. And Shaun, OK. In terms of the next release that came out through DDS Records, Colón Man... Is that pronounced correctly? Colon? ‘Cause it’s got an accent. It is. What was the approach to that? Was this also a collection or a retrospective of things you’ve been working on, or was this newer material? Because there was such a small amount of time between those two records that came out through DDS.

Gavsborg

It was all new stuff. It was all new stuff over the course of two months.

Time Cow

Like two months, yeah.

Christine Kakaire

Was there a different approach to the production of it? Just in the sense of knowing that you’re working towards this record that’s coming out and I love the transition between Bird Sound Power and Colón Man because Colón Man is even more stripped-back and minimal and glitchy. Is that something that you... A project that you went into going, “OK, we’re making this album and this is the palette,” or was it still just this kind of organic...

Time Cow

A little of everything. Some of the tracks influenced by a lot of things. Mainly even our travels, experiencing new music and new people, just even the feelings of different countries, being there. In Poland, we found a kalimba in a friend’s house. It was his child’s toy, and we sampled that. We really took a lot from what we learned and put it back in to that and tried to make it tighter than Bird Sound Power. So it’s more like an album. And even the title track, there was actually a track called “Colón Man” but it didn’t really fit with the direction of everything. I figure, you know, we really love that track, but if it can’t go on it Why don’t we just call the album Colón Man then? We have to win in some way.

Christine Kakaire

Not giving up on it.

Time Cow

No.

Christine Kakaire

And Colón Man is, as with Bird Sound Power, primarily instrumental riddims that you’ve put together. Would you like to hear somebody singing or MCing over these tracks at some point? Apart from, of course, in the live setting, when you have Shanique and other vocalists. As they are at the moment, are these tracks that you would hope to feed back into your collective of artists and to see what they do with them as well? Or do you think these two records will stand alone as these specific projects?

Gavsborg

Not necessarily you know. Not necessarily at all. If something like that happens, we’ll welcome the discussion. But we’re definitely not setting out to do that.

Christine Kakaire

I’d love to play track off Colón Man in a moment. But just in terms of the multiplicity of sound that you can hear across it, as I mentioned before, like a lot of glitchy electronic sounds, a lot of what sounds to me like a UK bass influence. Do you think, or would you say that it’s fair to say that this comes at the end of a period of perhaps absorbing other influences as well, and kind of cross-pollinating with artists that you’ve met across your travels?

Time Cow

Definitely.

Christine Kakaire

Is there anything in particular that you can identify as being, not one particular influence or a scene... Was there anything that in particular sparked the idea for this album?

Time Cow

[laughs] Hmm. That’s quite a good question. I think we have to go home and sleep on it.

Shanique Marie

We’ll email you.

Christine Kakaire

Yeah, send it to me on SoundCloud or…

Shanique Marie

MSN Messenger.

Time Cow

Even the influences that you’re speaking of... We’ll be at shows, and it’s not like we just go there to perform we go there to also enjoy. And hearing some noise music, and you’ll hear some techno, and some UK bass, “You know that would sound a bit tougher with some other tings.” And we try to as Gavin said, we may use a Timbaland sample pack but we turn it into our own. So we just draw tings from other things and turn it into our own.

Christine Kakaire

Very good. I think we should hear a track off Colón Man and I’m going to select, let’s go for “Plantain Porridge,” because I think this links nicely to what I mentioned before of taking one particular sound source and really stretching it, and in this particular track it’s a voice, which is kind of stretched and molded in multiple different ways. So let’s play this one.

Time Cow

It’s also a very nice porridge. [laughter]

(music: Equiknoxx – “Plaintain Porridge” / applause)

Christine Kakaire

That was the delicious “Plantain Porridge” by Equiknoxx. I’m just gonna ask one last question, then we’re gonna turn it over to the audience. What’s the key to a good riddim?

Time Cow

You have many keys. You have C, C major, C minor. [laughter]

Shanique Marie

I was just about to say! The key to a good riddim is your heart. That’s the key to a good riddim.

Time Cow

Just make the riddim.

Shanique Marie

Just do it. Just start. Just try not to think about it too much. Try not to think, “I need to make this riddim like the riddim that I just heard on the radio,” or, “I just heard in the street.” Try to make the riddim based on what you feel. ‘Cause you hear it, you know? You hear it in your head, and then you’re like, “Yeah. Yeah. OK, cool. Yeah, alright.” You hear it. Make sure that you use that. What you hear in your head is most likely coming from here. [points to heart]

Time Cow

Your belly.

Shanique Marie

This is your belly? This is where your belly is? Here? Coming from your heart. But I’m no big beat maker, so I’m just saying...

Time Cow

Riddim, riddim.

Shanique Marie

Riddim, riddim, riddim. I’m no riddim maker, so I’ll hand it over to the professionals.

Time Cow

[looking at Gavin] What you gotta say about it?

Shanique Marie

Riddims from Shanique Marie coming soon.

Gavsborg

I think it all the thinking from before. I think in the studio you should just let it go. You do your thinking on your way to the studio, on your way home, on your way to work, on your way to school, wherever. That’s where you do the thinking. In the studio, just be free.

Shanique Marie

Just do it. Isn’t that Nike?

Christine Kakaire

OK, so, at this stage we’re gonna open it to questions from the rest of you. If anyone has a question or a comment, just out your hand up and we’ll bring a microphone round for you.

Audience Member

I have two questions. The first one, a little bit more opinionated for you guys. How do you feel about artists such as Drake taking the underlying rhythms of dancehall and riddim and applying them to a more Top 40 type music. Do you think he should be taking his time to give a lot of credit and working with dancehall artists, or do you think it’s perfectly acceptable in an artistic fashion to do that?

Time Cow

That good, man! You see with Drake now, Drake is a superstar and familiar with dancehall, I can identify it. Dancehall is quite limited and also what we can do from Jamaica as well. In Jamaica we can’t really have Spotify, we can’t make Spotify accounts, tings like that. So when Drake uses his own platform and puts dancehall out there, maybe the chances are better of it maybe even getting its own category, maybe iTunes or one of dem, because there pretty much is no dancehall category, just reggae and tings like that. The more strength for us when other people use it.

Audience Member

My second question is, since you guys are very sample-oriented in the beat, do you ever have a problem clearing your samples? Or is it mostly stuff that you have in the catalog of your own recordings?

Time Cow

Most of the times I sample just myself. We don’t really run into much problems with clearing. Maybe that’s because of a lot of groundwork before anything is put out. I remember trying to contact... A few years ago, I was trying to put out some music, and I was trying to contact somebody to clear some samples that was from a Star Trek episode. And I had to contact Sony. I contacted Sony and they sent me to Decker, and I contacted Decker, and they sent me back to somewhere else. It’s just quite complicated, so unless you’re doing like major production that, you know, will get attraction from these people or the copyright owners, you know, you should seek out clear answer in any case in a legal term, you know, you can say that, “OK, I sought to clear this sample from you. It was pretty much impossible to get in contact.”

Shanique Marie

And what we recommend as well is to be creative and make your own samples. And when you make your own samples, you don’t have to worry about clearing them, because they’re yours. And you remember that samples can be made from anything at all. Me speaking right now could be your next sample. But you’re not going to do that. But yeah, so we’re encouraging that as well. You know, tap into your creativity and make your own samples too.

Audience Member

You were talking about how in 10 years it basically went from people contacting you over MSN Messenger to SoundCloud, and I was curious how technological advancements over the same period of time, whether it comes to DAWs or sampling, impacted the way you make music in the same way that there is that transition socially?

Gavsborg

I missed a small part of that.

Audience member

So you mentioned over 10 years you went from people contacting you over MSN to people contacting you for SoundCloud, so obviously there is a sea change in how people were communicating about music. But, in terms of changes over that same period and how you made music, can you talk about what that process was? Whether the digital audio work stations that you were using changed, if you’re using hardware, how that changed over the years, that sort of thing.

Gavsborg

I think we’ve just... I did more and more things, you know, not necessarily changed anything, per se. So 10 years ago I had an [MPC], [FL studio], Pro Tools. Fast forward to now, what we use now? We have been messing with a lot of Ableton, but we still use Pro Tools and we still use FL Studio, we still use the MPC. So we really haven’t changed out anything, it’s just a matter of bringing in more stuff. There was a point in time when we were just messing with hardware.

There was a colleague of mine who had basically just checked out what [Steely and Clevie] used to use, which are legendary dancehall producers. And she just basically checked out the stuff that they used to use, and just got them off of eBay, and then she left them at our studio for a couple of months. And a lot of that stuff built a lot of the stuff that’s on Bird Sound Power. The link is one of them that was like [Oberheim] the DX, the CS-01. Yeah, we were just messing with that stuff. That is maybe the only time when something presented itself and then it went in. Outside of that everything else has been there. I did more and more stuff to it.

Time Cow

I guess also I just use what we have at the moment.

Gavsborg

Yeah.

Time Cow

And Pro Tools in Jamaica is pretty much a staple, a studio staple. But we really like Ableton, and we just use more things now, pretty much.

Audience Member

You said you had an MPC 10 years ago. Do you still find yourself using that, especially with Ableton, because I know the compatibility with Ableton is not great, but I do love my MPC, so that’s where I’m conflicted right now.

Gavsborg

Yeah, we use it as a stand alone really. It’s a... It’s a 2500.

Audience Member

OK.

Gavsborg

So we use it as a standalone. And what happens is, is that sound would come into Pro Tools and then would be modified some more. I mean bounce that back to Jordan, he may have it in Logic. I think it’s just dependent on what side of the bed we wake up on that determines the approach that we take.

Audience Member

So now that you’re using Ableton, do you find yourself using less audio samples from drum machines and more MIDI based clips, or do you still find yourself importing all your stuff from your MPC?

Gavsborg

I tell you what, just about like three weeks ago, I was making a riddim and the sidechain was on, and it was like... The kick was like sidechaining just the background noise in my yard. Like the neighbor’s car was driving out. Basically just run for the recorder, right, so I recorded that and actually put it back in the music and sidechained that. And that was pretty much the basis of the riddim with a kick and snare. So it can come from anything, really, you know.

Audience Member

What is quite interesting, you said, it’s not changed so much in 10 years, but the sounds I heard they’ve changed quite a lot, like the last sound was really international. I could not guess that this was a sound from Jamaica. So of course, the technology influences your music.

Gavsborg

Well, I’ll tell you what, 10 years ago we were making that, but it just wasn’t being exposed to the world.

Time Cow

Like some tracks off Bird Sound Power are like five years old and tings.

Shanique Marie

So the instruments or the machinery that we’ve used hasn’t really changed. It’s how the sound is being presented, and as they mentioned, a lot of it we’ve actually had it a long time. We just kind of dusted it off. Modified it a little bit and brought it back. So even though time is changing and things are evolving, we’ve pretty much been using the same stuff all this time.

Audience member

But don’t you feel that you developed in a different way? I mean, I need to listen deeper in your records.

Shanique Marie

Yeah, I mean, as you grow you experience things, and so perception and mental process changes. So I think that is what has changed and has caused slightly different sounds coming out in the music. But it’s the same physical products that are being used to create these different sounds. So the influence is there as time goes by and we go through the different years and we are exposed to different things. But the technology is the same that we’ve been using all this time over the years.

Gavsborg

Another funny thing with the last track was that we actually bounced it with Pro Tools. I don’t know if you know, the version that we have is quite old and it bounces in real time, you know, so we actually bounced the track outta Pro Tools and forgot to put a lot of the drums in. And then when we listen back to it, it was like, “It’s kinda alright still.” Had you heard it with the drums it maybe would have sounded a bit more, I don’t know, familiar?

Audience Member

I have a question. Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that over the course of the years you met other people in different countries who are very, you know, die-hard fans of your music, or small communities of people who are really into Jamaican dancehall all over the world. But since you started touring, I’ve seen you guys perform for the first time at Unsound Festival, two years ago, and for example that is a type of festival, also CTM, that showcases such a broad styles of music and I imagine Jamaica is a country that’s already very rich with their own music culture. Whereas, for example, Japan, where I come from, we don’t have so much musical styles that really differ a lot in the country, so we look out for music from elsewhere. So I was wondering, you know, by touring and visiting different places if you’ve discovered a style of music or type of artist that you really found fresh or new for you guys?

Time Cow

Maybe [Kuduro] for me I think.

Shanique Marie

Yes. Yes, definitely. Kuduro.

Gavsborg

I really loved this album last year [inaudible], we met a couple days ago.

Shanique Marie

A couple of days ago in Barcelona.

Gavsborg

That was very refreshing. That was very refreshing to hear that album.

Speaker Shanique Marie

I would have to say that Gqom is another one that I didn’t know about it before. Was it outside Unsound that or was it... Which festival was it where we discovered it? Where I discovered it. In Vienna, and I heard it and I was like, “Whoa.” In Jamaica, with our African background, everything that has that kind of foundation definitely stands out to me. So Kuduro and the Gqom those are my two that I definitely have latched on to, yeah.

Audience Member

I was just wondering if you had any like advice for aspiring producers and musicians from younger generations who are growing up, because like with net neutrality and stuff like that, now it’s become a lot more kind of competitive and stuff. And I was just wondering if you have any advice about how to become more of an original artist and stuff?

Time Cow

Just be yourself. Nothing can be more original than yourself. And as I said before, the key to a good riddim just do it. I mean, if you just be yourself, I don’t know what better can come from that. And I really think like earlier things, Shanique saying, we compete with each other and tings like that. I mean, you just compete with your former self and just become better.

Shanique Marie

And be persistent. The aim of the game is to stay in the game, never to give up. Yeah, never to give up. I have to say, if it wasn’t for my team, I definitely wouldn’t be here today. It’s always good when you have people who believe in you, but most importantly, you have to believe in yourself. And you have to say to yourself, “I’m a star.” And you might not know it yet, but you’re going to know it. This is something that I’ve been telling myself from when I was very young. I was like, “I’m a star.” And then I met up with these guys, who are like, “Yeah, girl, you’re a star for real.” So, just be consistent, just be persistent, and just be your biggest fan and your biggest critic as well. Be real and honest and true to yourself. Be reflective. Reflection in everything in crucial, because that allows you to see your growth, to see where you’ve created something that might not feel like that’s the direction you want to go in. Always be analyzing and critiquing yourself so that you push yourself to be your best self.

Time Cow

And also me and Gavin were having a discussion last night…

Shanique Marie

Gavin and I.

Time Cow

Me and Gavin.

Shanique Marie

Gavin and I.

Time Cow

OK. Gavin and I were having a discussion. I’m a trained teacher you know?

Shanique Marie

And so am I.

Time Cow

Alright.

Shanique Marie

I’m a trained English teacher, so let’s be specific.

Time Cow

I’m a trained construction teacher, so I can construct sentences.

Shanique Marie

But I’m helping you to construct them in a correct and appropriate way. So go on.

Time Cow

And I accept that.

Gavsborg

And I’m a trained get-to-the-point teacher. [laughter]

Time Cow

So like Gavin and I...

Shanique Marie

Thank you.

Time Cow

… we were having a discussion like last night and we were speaking about like Jamaica pretty much being like a wormhole in like earth or the space-time continuum or whatever. Whereas due to maybe under exposure to like the rest of the world, like we just said, I pretty much just discovered Kuduro a few months ago, we have a particular kind of naivety that allows us to do things that other people maybe won’t be able to do like, probably live in the U.K. and you say, “OK, I want to do this.” But then you think about it then you realize that, “Alright, but then if I do this, this person...” It won’t be allowed to, you know, be done under these circumstances. But in Jamaica we really don’t have such a problem. We just do it, and like... Like when I’m in the studio or when I make a new riddim, or like I go down to the studio or at the studio. And I say, “Yo Gavin hear dis, the baddest riddim inya world.” You also have to have that confidence as well.

Christine Kakaire

A bit of swagger there. Thank you, everyone for your questions, and please help me in thanking Jordan, Shanique and Gavin. [applause]