Greg Phillinganes
Greg Phillinganes began playing the piano at the tender age of two and hasn’t stopped since. Inspired as a youth by the classic Motown recordings of the Jackson 5 and Stevie Wonder, Phillinganes began performing with bands around his hometown of Detroit as a teenager.
After Stevie Wonder heard a demo tape of his, Phillinganes was asked to join Wonder’s Wonderlove band and contributed to the landmark album Songs In the Key Of Life. He soon became one of the most in-demand session keyboardists in the music industry and, in 1979, handled arrangements on the Jacksons’ Destiny LP. A close association with Michael Jackson followed, including sessions for Off the Wall and Thriller and a role as Jackson’s touring music director. Still active today, Phillinganes recalled the stories, and revealed the secrets behind timeless hits in his lecture at the 2016 Red Bull Music Academy.
Hosted by Jeff “Chairman” Mao Welcome to the lecture this morning. We have with us a gentleman here, on the couch, who’s a keyboardist, arranger, producer, music director, and he’s been a part of some of the recordings that have defined an era and generations. Would you please welcome Mr. Greg Phillinganes. Welcome. (applause) Greg Phillinganes Thank you. I mean, thank you. It’s great to be here. Jeff “Chairman” Mao I’d like to actually start, just because everybody’s come in from food, or whatever conversation they’ve been having, or session that they just came out of, with a little bit of music just to reset our ears. Going to play something from Greg’s career, featuring a few people who were pivotal figures in your career. This song is produced by Quincy Jones, written by Stevie Wonder, and features a singer named Michael Jackson. The song is titled “I Can’t Help It,” and it features Greg on keyboards, electric piano, synthesizer. Greg Phillinganes Yes. All that. (music: Michael Jackson – “I Can’t Help It” / applause) Greg Phillinganes You know, I get asked many times, “Do you remember what was going on in the studio then?” And I go, “No, I don’t.” I don’t remember. But this, I remember just about everything, because the funny thing about this was that, as you mentioned, it was written by Stevie, you know, and we heard the demo that he sent. It wasn’t like this at all. It was completely different. It was a lot more Latin influenced, you know, and it was based more off of an acoustic piano. (walks over to piano and begins playing) Now I got to find an acoustic piano here. You know, it was more like “A Night in Tunisia” kind of thing. I thought, well, this is going to be cool, you know, and Quincy actually asked me to kind of junior-produce this. I thought, ‘This is fantastic, what an honor, man, this is going to be great.’ I took the demo, and I thought, I’m just going to recreate the demo, right? I set it all up, and I played on it, and I had Sheila E. come down and play percussion. I remember watching her do overdubs in the booth, and I thought, ‘Oh, this is going to be great, man, this is going to be fantastic.’ I think it was in that key, too, E flat, originally, and so I get it all together and I’m ready to present this all to Quincy, and I play it for him, and I go, “What do you think?” He goes, “Eh, no. Not really what I had in mind, at all.” I was like (makes deflating noise). Then he explained to me the same way that Count Basie explained to Neal Hefti when he brought in this tune, because Neal Hefti was this hot, young arranger at this time, and he brought in this tune called “Lil' Darlin’,” I believe it was called. It was, you know, really fast, you know, really energetic, and the melody was like (sounds out melody) you know. Neal thought he was going to really impress Count Basie with this fast, hot uptempo tune, and when Count Basie heard it, it was like, “No, you’re missing the point.” What Basie did, in his genius, was he slowed it down and made it sexy, so you could hear every note of the melody. It completely changed the dynamic of the song. The reason why I’m explaining that is because that’s the same thing Quincy said to me about “Can’t Help It.” He said, “No, no, no. This is Michael. You got to make it sexy.” It was on the Off the Wall album, right? Jeff “Chairman” Mao Right. Greg Phillinganes This was Michael’s coming out as an adult, not the bubblegum kid anymore, so this was his statement like, “I’m grown up now, and I’m grown and sexy.” That’s how Quincy wanted to present him so he said, “No, no, no. You got to slow it down. Make it sexier.” Then when he explained it to me and we put it in a different key, then I went, “Oh, I get it. I really get it now.” Quincy set up the parameters. He set up the new foundation for us to play off of, and then when I got that, I was all over it then. I did the bass, the synth bass, the sexy synth bass and the beautiful Rhodes and I remember there was this synthesizer called the Oberheim OB-8. The beautiful thing about that was it had these modules that you connected together, but one of the best features about that OB-8 was that it was polyphonic, you could play several notes at a time. You could set it to where each note had its own portamento. Meaning you hit a note and the time it takes to go from the one note to the next, you could set that individually. When you hit each note you never knew how long it was going to take to get to the next note. You’d play a chord and you go (plays piano) and then you’d hear (makes noise with his mouth) and then you play a note down here in your left hand and it would go (makes noise) and then go (makes noise). You had this beautiful creamy wall of sound and that’s what you’re hearing on top of the Rhodes. They let me on that thing and I went crazy. I was just like, “Oh, this is fantastic.” When you hear it in the track, that’s when you’re hearing all this (makes noise), and then I did sort of like a solo lead line and I implemented that same feature with the portamento, so it was just a gorgeous process. It was a valuable lesson learned, but I learned it. That’s the story about that. I’m going to come back over here. Was that informative? (applause) Jeff “Chairman” Mao Very much so. Greg Phillinganes Was that good? Jeff “Chairman” Mao I don’t even have to ask any questions. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. I hope y’all got nothing to do. We could be here a while. I don’t know. Anyway, yeah. That’s what I remember about that. Jeff “Chairman” Mao I guess, let’s establish this. You were a session keyboardist for many years. How do you define the role of what a session keyboardist is? Obviously, this is beyond that for this particular track, but what do you view that role as? Greg Phillinganes A session musician, regardless of instrument, is a person who has evolved in the craft of making records. (speaks like an elderly man) “Well, that was back then. It was back then when I was your age. Things have changed now. You kids don’t know. You kids don’t know nothing about this.” You see the difference is that the process of making records these days is vastly different. You can make a record with this (points to computer). This is making a record right here. Back in my day, what we used to do is we used to all get together in a room called a studio. It was a studio and we’d have a guy in a booth. He was an engineer. That’s all he did, was engineer. He had a big thing that was called a – you know what I’m talking about. We had a console, we had engineers and we had musicians, we had a recording studio, we had a producer. Everybody had their roles. You’d go in, and you would either hear the demo of the track you were going to work on or you’d have charts, or both. It was between the musicians in the room and the producer to kind of bring a new evolution from the demo that would be inspirational for the artists and everyone involved. Basically, Quincy’s motto was, if it doesn’t give me goosebumps how can I expect anybody else to dig it? That was the idea, and while it may seem foreign to some that a bunch of guys could actually get in a room and create music at the same time, that was normal for us. It was such a golden age because we literally learned how make records, how to make finished products and in all different kind of genres. One day you’d be in a studio with Willie Nelson, next day you’d be in a studio with Barbara Streisand, next day you’d be in a studio with Lionel Richie, or whoever, George Benson. You just learned, and it was a fantastic process. You had to deal with different personalities, different producers with their different techniques. Imagine being in a room and you’re doing an overdub with a producer who says, “You know, I need to make this a little more green.” Now, you’re sitting there thinking, “OK, what the hell is he talking about?” Then you’re going through your mind and based on your experience and based on what you’re listening to and based upon the fact that you know the producer that’s talking to you is crazy and probably stoned out of his mind, doesn’t even know what the hell he’s talking about... You go, “Well, yeah. Green. OK, let me check that out.” Then you play something and he goes, “Yeah, that’s it.” Now you’ve done your job. You know what I’m saying? That’s what it was like. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Did you feel confined in any way as a musician? You’re performing this craft, using your skills, but you’re also assigned to a very specific thing too. Greg Phillinganes Yeah, but that’s the beauty of it because people think that, “Well I just need to be limitless.” But actually, the more parameters you have, the more creative you can be because you understand how far you can go, so now what can I do within this set of parameters? What can I do within these boundaries that will make this work? That’s actually the challenge of it, and the joy is the result you get from that. Jeff “Chairman” Mao A colleague of yours, Michael Boddicker, I believe, a fellow keyboardist, he once said that you had the deepest pocket since the Mariana Trench. What do you think that means? Greg Phillinganes I have no idea. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Well can you explain, not literally deep pockets but… Greg Phillinganes No, I know what he means. Pocket refers to groove. The ability to groove without rushing or slowing down. That’s what he meant. Pocket was really the ultimate compliment that one musician could give to another because it meant that there was this space in between the groove that if you rest in it, that’s the butter. That’s what feels good. For drummers playing just a basic thing like (beatboxes a drum beat), and whatever you play rests in that and it doesn’t feel rushed and it doesn’t feel behind, that’s the pocket. Jeff “Chairman” Mao How did you develop that? You started young, didn’t you? Greg Phillinganes Yeah. There’s a story to that. I would just say the experience of playing with different kinds of musicians because while listening to recordings of your inspirations is very important, nothing will expand your musicianship more than just getting in a room with guys and girls and just going at it. You know? Jeff “Chairman” Mao How did you start playing piano? Greg Phillinganes How did I, you mean from the very beginning? Well, I started at two. And I don’t mean PM. I started when I was two years old and I started playing by ear. I would go to my nextdoor neighbor’s house. I’m from Detroit. I would go to my next-door neighbors. In their basement, they had an old piano and I would spend a lot of time there. My mom didn’t really know what I was doing, where I was spending all my time. When she found out, she went downtown to a music store called Grinnell’s and bought me this piano, this upright, beautiful, ornate, upright piano and it became my new best friend. I would sit on it. I’d play some things that were rhythmic, so to compensate for that I would kick the panel, the lower panel of it, to make percussion. I’d be playing it and kicking it. Actually remember doing that, which is crazy. Much to my mom’s delight. Then, around six years old, I started taking formal lessons, 'til about the age of – I had three different teachers. The first one was obviously doing the elementary stuff and then there was more of a mid-level instructor, but the third one was the most influential. Mom actually managed to get the pianist with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra to instruct me. His name was Mischa Kottler. He was one rough customer. He was quite intimidating. He could take this middle finger like this and crack a pane of glass. He was that strong. I left his place many a time with my head between my legs because he was really quite intimidating, but he was what I needed as far as discipline. Jeff “Chairman” Mao You were studying classically. Greg Phillinganes I was studying classical, yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao What did that bring you as a player do you think? Greg Phillinganes Well, along with discipline, just an expansion and appreciation for that genre. It just expanded my musicality because that’s one genre that I’m able to incorporate in others that I play. You can incorporate elements of that in pop, and jazz. Very famous artists and bands did. The Beatles did that. It was a wonderful resource to have. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Detroit... Obviously, Motown was based in Detroit at the time. Was it a thing where you thought about working with Motown as a young musician? A lot of people from Detroit will say you were either at the auto plant or you were a musician or both. Were those the options that were set out for you or did you have others? Greg Phillinganes I wasn’t in the auto plant. I was just a kid, running around and being immersed in that music, and other genres as well. I listened to a lot of rock & roll. I started listening to jazz in later years, as an early teenager, but I remember as a kid, the first jazz record I listened to was Lee Morgan’s Sidewinder. I wore that thing out. I had everything coming at me. I was too young to go to the Motown Revue. I never went to one of those. I had that music and it was just wonderful growing up in that time that that was growing up as well. I remember in high school telling friends of mine that I would eventually play with Stevie Wonder. It was in my gut. I had the posters of him on my wall and everything. I really absorbed his music. I just felt like I had this connection with him. I’d never met him before. I’d seen him twice in concert. I just remember telling people, “I’m going to play with him one day.” You say things and you don’t realize that you’re actually implementing God’s purpose already. When you have that gut feeling, that’s what’s happening. I didn’t realize it at the time. There’s another story that led to that meeting. Jeff “Chairman” Mao You can tell us that story. Greg Phillinganes Would you like to hear that story? Jeff “Chairman” Mao Sure. Greg Phillinganes OK, fine. Well, I’m so glad you asked, Jeff, because – so what happened was, there was a friend of mine who was a drummer. He was asked by a former band member of Stevie’s to audition for him in New York. When I heard about this, I was thrilled obviously for my good friend. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Greg Phillinganes Ricky Lawson. We played in a band together. I used to go with one of his sisters. We were very good friends. I went to his house the night before he left to hang with him and congratulate him. We were talking. We were all excited, everything. He’s packing. We’re in the basement and he said to me at one point, “Right, so I want you to play some stuff on a cassette.” OK, a cassette, right. So what happened was, there were these little things called cassettes and they actually had tape inside and you would throw the thing. They had the special machines that played these cassettes. You could record on them, or play back. What happened was I played some things on a cassette and he said he would give it to Stevie. I thought, “Well, you know, you don’t need to do this.” But he insisted. This is the kind of friend he was. He left the next day, and some time passed. It seemed like an eternity, of course, but it was probably two or three days. Then I get a call from him early one morning and he says, “Stevie Wonder wants to see you in New York today.” What do you do? I’m running around the house like a banshee. I’m screaming. I’m grabbing clothes. My mom’s getting ready to go to work and she’s like, “What is the matter with you?” I said, “Stevie Wonder wants to see me in New York!” She says, “OK, well just bring clean underwear” because you know that’s the – that’s what moms do. They just want you to not soil your underwear. That’s the only thing. If you get into a car crash, she’s like, “But was his underwear clean?” That’s all they care about, not how many gashes you have in your head. “Did you have clean underwear?” I’m running around, I’m preparing, but check this out. I’m told, I’m instructed rather, on my way to the airport, to stop by Stevie’s house to pick up one of his brothers. Now I get to go inside Stevie Wonder’s house. Jeff “Chairman” Mao In Detroit? Greg Phillinganes In Detroit. There were a bunch of us who knew where he lived. It was a street called Cherrylawn. There were the urban legends that occasionally you could walk by the house and see Stevie Wonder in the back yard shooting hoops. (laughter) I never got to see, but I’m not, it probably did happen because he’s crazy like that. Also you don’t want to play air hockey with him. He will crush you. You think I’m kidding. I’ve done it, it’s true. I’m sitting now inside Stevie Wonder’s house. I’m going, “OK, well here I am. I’m just looking around. I’m in Stevie Wonder’s house.” I’m waiting for one of his brothers, Timothy, to come down. He comes down. We go to the airport. We go to New York. I get settled and I arrive there and I go, “Wow, New York. Just like I pictured it. Skyscrapers and everything.” Then I go to the studio. It was the original Hit Factory in New York and I’m sitting there on pins and needles, man, because you know, come on, I’m getting ready to meet my all time idol. I’m sitting there and I’m trying to be cool and I’m talking to the engineers. They know what I’m going through, they just know. I was like, “OK, yeah, this is good fun.” I’m looking around the control room and I go, “OK, fine.” In the control there was a monitor. You could see who was coming in and out. There was an elevator. There’s only one way to get in and out, it was this elevator, so they put this monitor by the elevator. You could see who goes in and out. It seems like another eternity passes, but finally I’m looking up at the monitor, the elevator door opens and out comes his sister and she’s guiding him in and he’s (imitates Stevie Wonder moving his head) Then he walks in the room and they say, “Stevie, Greg is here.” This handshake from him was the single most life-changing event when I met him. He’s like, “How you doing?” I’m like, “I think I soiled my pants.” We had some small talk, he showed me a song that he wanted to see if I would learn on the spot. What are you going to do? You got to follow along. We played around a little bit and talked. Then the next day was more of the formal audition for me. It was between me and this older looking white guy who was another keyboardist. I go and I meet the rest of the band and there were people like Niecy Williams, who was in the band at the time, she went on to have a great solo career. I remember one of the first things Niecy did was she walked by me and pinched me on the butt. They were very informal then. I was obviously nervous, but I remember certain band members coming up to me at different points going, (whispering) “It’s OK, you got it, don’t worry about it.” We played and did stuff all day and then that evening I’m in the car with Stevie on the way back to the Hit Factory. I’m riding there and all the sudden he turns around and says, “How does it feel to be a member of Wonderlove?” Now my mind is like, “eeeeee,” because I’m thinking about all these things I heard about him like he’s a practical joker and you never know if he’s serious or not. I said, “Are you serious?” He said, “Of course.” I said, “Then would you mind telling my mom?” I figure he ain’t going to lie to Mom. He said, “Sure.” We go back to the studio and I dial the house, give him the phone, the first voice my mom hears is his, saying that he wants to have her son in his band and that he was going to take care of me and all this stuff. I can’t remember exactly what he said. They had a short talk and he hands the phone back to me and this is what you hear for about the next 10 minutes (screams). Needless to say I was – Did I blow this? Needless to say I was excited, I was happy and I was thrilled. My mom thought this was going to be a weekend fling and I was going to come back home and that would be that. It was a weekend fling and I did go back home – to get the rest of my stuff because I was moving to New York. Now, here’s the crazy thing, my dear friend Ricky did not get the gig, but Roy Ayers – Who knows Roy Ayers? Who knows him? OK, good. Roy Ayers was hanging around a lot of the time and he said, “If you don’t get it with him, I’ll take you.” Ricky ended up with Roy. Years later he ended up with Stevie and Phil Collins and everybody else in between. This all happened April 2, 1975, a month before I turned 19, but a month before Stevie turned 25. I’m saying that he was 25 years old and he was working on Songs in the Key of Life at 25. Which means he was a lot younger when he was working on Music of my Mind, Talking Book, Innervisions, and Fulfillingness’ First Finale. Has that sunken in yet? He was 25. I managed to record four songs with him on that album. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Not bad. Greg Phillinganes That’s all you got to say, not bad? It’s Songs in the Key of Life. (applause) Jeff “Chairman” Mao Giving you a hard time. Greg Phillinganes What did you do when you were 19? I’m kidding. Jeff “Chairman” Mao I was listening to you. Greg Phillinganes I kid, I’m sorry. I had a David Foster moment, I’m sorry. Go ahead. Jeff “Chairman” Mao You were auditioning for an artist who’s a giant already, but not only that, he plays the same instrument as you. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao What is that like, trying to develop on your own and then being under this? Greg Phillinganes It was nerve wracking because the thing about the audition cassette was I wanted to let him know musically that I felt I understood how he thinks. One of the things I played on the cassette was “Sunshine of My Life.” OK, here we go again. (walks over to keyboard) Now the other side of this story, there’s a backstory. When Ricky was told he didn’t get the gig, obviously he was a little disappointed. He leaves, his tail between his legs, and as he was leaving the building – maybe it was the studio, I’m not sure exactly where it was. As he was leaving, he’s back out on the street and he realizes that he still has the cassette that he promised that he was going to give. He goes back and says to one of Stevie’s managers, “Look, I have a good friend of mine and he plays keyboards and I promised him I’d give this cassette to Stevie. If you could please make sure he listens to it.” The guy took it and he put it on a stack of other cassettes that Steve had on his table. Steve wasn’t there at the time, but when he got back, he’s rifling through cassettes, he picks mine up and he puts in the machine and he plays it, and he’s, like, listening, and then he stops it and he takes it out, and he says, “What does this cassette say?” And the manager said, “Well, it says Greg…” and of course he butchered the last name, “Greg Phre-fen-fuzfren.” Then Stevie reportedly said, “Find him. Get this guy.” They called poor Ricky back, and he said, “You change your mind?” And they said, “Not exactly. But you know your friend, can you find that guy? Stevie wants to see him.” That’s when Ricky called me and said that he wanted to see me. Because apparently, the story goes, and this is how the manager explained it to me, Stevie thought that it was him. He couldn’t figure out, when he played it, he thought he was listening to himself. Which is the ultimate compliment, because that’s what I set out to do. I didn’t realize it was to that degree, that he thought he was actually listening to himself. That was explained to me years later, but that was the backstory to that. (applause) Jeff “Chairman” Mao You mentioned Songs in the Key of Life, and performing on that, why don’t we listen to something that you performed on? (music: Stevie Wonder – “Isn’t She Lovely” / applause) Jeff “Chairman” Mao Stevie was a prodigy, you got into this music business very young, did he pass along any advice to you, anything like that? Was it that type of relationship? Greg Phillinganes Well, I mean, it’s not like we had late night campfire talks, but my experience was tremendous, because while I didn’t make it through college... I did try college, by the way, but I sucked at it. Even the stuff I liked, I was just tanking, you know. So I always say I didn’t go to college but I went to Wonder U. What happened was – the band Wonderlove that he had at the time, it was basically just an extension of him. He used us to formulate a lot of his ideas, so you had to be very flexible. We spent hours playing all kinds of stuff. Whether I was working out different lines, or working out endings or intros to songs he already had, or playing any kind of genre. He could go in and out of any style, classical, Latin, Afro-Cuban, pop, reggae, anything, and so you developed a keen sense of the mechanics of each genre, like what makes reggae reggae, what makes country country, you know what I mean? He could play any kind of style, and that was the most invaluable thing that I got from the years that I spent with him. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Did you have a sense, even just playing on four tracks, of the magnitude of Songs in the Key of Life, as it was being made? Greg Phillinganes No, I get asked that all the time. I get asked the same thing about Thriller. We knew that we were making a great record, and it was going to be pretty big and important, and Motown was impatiently waiting. At one time he had t-shirts made that we all wore that said, “We’re Almost Finished.” I remember that, “We’re Almost Finished,” because it was, the anticipation was like, “Uh, Stevie, you know?” Jeff “Chairman” Mao It was two years in the making, or more. Greg Phillinganes Oh, yeah. It seemed like 20. Yeah, and it was well worth the wait. I remember when it was finally released, the big ad campaign, one of the big parts of the ad campaign, was this massive wrap-around billboard in Times Square. It had the album cover, and it had him, and, you know, Songs in the Key of Life, released on, you know. I should know the date by heart. That day was recently celebrated, I think it was last month, 40 years ago is when it was released. It was pretty amazing. We knew it was something special, for sure. Just not how special. Jeff “Chairman” Mao How did you meet these gentlemen? (music: The Jacksons – “Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)” / applause) Jeff “Chairman” Mao Alright, so that was The Jacksons. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao “Shake Your Body Down” from the Destiny album for which you did arrangements. Greg Phillinganes I did the rhythm arrangements. You know, for the rhythm section, everything but the horns and the strings. Jeff “Chairman” Mao How did you come to work with the Jacksons? Greg Phillinganes Well, there was a very good friend of mine, Bobby Colomby, who was an executive and a producer at CBS at the time. He talked to me about arranging. Even though I had done a good amount of arranging for artists that were on the S.O.L.A.R. label that Dick Griffey and Don Cornelius had, they really gave me freedom to express my chops that way, I did a bit if that but I wasn’t fully confident yet, I don’t think. Bobby said, “You should do more arranging.” I thought, “I don’t know.” He says, “Yeah, actually you should, and actually you will, and actually here’s who you’re going to do it with.” Next thing I know, I’m in a room with the Jacksons. Like, “Oh, hi fellas. How you doing?” It was for the Destiny album, which was a big deal for them because they were breaking away from the whole Motown and even the Philly connection. They were basically on their own, but CBS didn’t completely trust them yet so they sent in Bobby and said, “We’ll just check things out, make sure they don’t go willy-nilly.”
Speaker: Jeff “Chairman” Mao
That was their first time writing some of their own material? Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Yeah, exactly. “Shake Your Body” was one of them. The first arrangement I did was “Blame It on the Boogie“. (singing) I came up with that bit. For “Shake Your Body,” they played me the demo, they just had the groove, and that’s all you had was (singing), right? They didn’t have a groove to it, they just had (singing), which was great. I thought, “Let’s see, how can we really make this hot?” After having just worked with Stevie, he was obviously my main inspiration for life, but the inspiration for that song in particular, I thought, “What would Stevie do?” Even with “Blame It on the Boogie,” that was the same thought, but especially for this, what would Stevie do? I noticed that you liked the drum groove. I came up with that. I wish we had drums here. If we did, I could show you that I can still play it in its entirety. I can play the whole thing. What happened was, the drummer that played on the track is a brilliant guy named Ed Greene, but he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t do the whole thing. We had to do it in three separate passes. The first pass was just (singing). Just the groove, right? Just that, right? The whole way through. Then the second pass was with the tom-toms. (singing). Actually, just the toms because he already laid down the first part, right? Just the toms is (singing) right, for the second pass. The third pass was that crazy hi-hat part that goes (singing) right? That’s all he did for the third pass. When he put it all together he got (singing) right? I came up with that because, having spent all that time with Stevie, he has a – he can play drums, but it’s very unorthodox style Stevie had of playing drums. He would do insane stuff. You just can’t imagine a human being being able to do this. It was based off of Stevie’s unorthodox style of drumming that I came up with that pattern. Then of course, the synth bass, I’m all over that. That was totally inspired by Stevie as well. You notice on the piano track, it’s got a chorus effect on it? Well, it’s not an effect. What I did was I played one pass down completely, and then recorded another pass playing the same piano but I sped the tape up a little bit. When he slowed it back down it created that chorus, almost like honky-tonk piano effect. That’s how we did it in the old days. Now you just press a button and it’s chorus. You had to work hard back in those days. You had to work at it. That’s how that track developed. Of course, the guys thought I was crazy when I came up with that beat. They’re like, “The hell is this?” Then when they heard it back all together they thought, “This is really cool.” Jeff “Chairman” Mao What did you observe about Michael in this period? I feel like everyone talks about Off the Wall, about Thriller, but these albums, these Jacksons albums… Greg Phillinganes They were the lead-ups to that. Jeff “Chairman” Mao They were. They feel like they were. Greg Phillinganes Absolutely. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Was that your observation as well? Greg Phillinganes I didn’t know what was to come. I just knew that, at that time, he and all the brothers were just – you could feel the sense of liberation and excitement that they were on their own. By the time they got to Triumph, they were completely on their own. They brought me back in to do more rhythm arrangements, but that was pretty much the springboard for them. The Destiny album was pretty much the springboard for their newfound creativity. Jeff “Chairman” Mao What did you observe about Michael just even as a songwriter, as a performer in the studio, in those albums? Greg Phillinganes Well, he was meticulous about the parts, and he treated the parts of his songs like characters. Every sound was a character. He couldn’t play every instrument. He dabbled in piano. There’s actually a picture of us at a piano. He dabbled with piano and he could play drums. Bet you didn’t know that, huh? I was in the studio once and we were just mulling around, and all of a sudden I heard this groove. I peeped around and it’s Michael on drums. I’m like, “Oh, well that’s a little different,” but then when you think about it, it makes perfect sense because he was a dancer. Just like –Sammy Davis, Jr., who was an unbelievable dancer, tap dancer, he played drums as well, so it made sense. He was able to totally reproduce the sound he wanted, the sound he had in his mind at the time, whatever it was, especially when it came to those percussive guitar parts. Like for “Wanna Be Startin’ Somethin’” where it goes (singing). He found a guy, David Williams, who was brilliant at that, and he was able to completely and accurately reproduce exactly the vibe and attitude Michael wanted for those kind of parts. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Well, before we get into Thriller, let’s talk a little bit about this. (music: Michael Jackson – “Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough” / applause) Greg Phillinganes Yeah, oh boy. Oh boy. Where do I begin? Yeah I got some stories for you about that song right there. Do you want to hear them? Audience Member Yes. Greg Phillinganes Do you want to hear all of them? Audience Member All of them. Greg Phillinganes Are you sure? Audience Member Yes. Greg Phillinganes OK. Be careful what you ask for. All right well we’ll start with the easy light stuff first and I’m looking for a particular picture in my phone, that’s why I’m doing this. Trust me it’ll be worth it. This picture will be the punch line to the other story, so I’m not ignoring you, I’m just trying to find this thing. Oh, I found the picture. OK good. Many things about this, oh dear. The vocal for instance, the lead vocal, is mostly the (singing). Now when he originally did it that’s all there was, the melody was just staying there in that register but again the brilliance of Quincy as producer, he has Michael sing some answers in a lower register. Just to make sure the girls knew he was still a man. It was important because imagine, ladies, just listening to that without him doing those lower answers. It would be a little different wouldn’t it? You’d be like, “Oh he just sounds like a girl,” right? But when he goes (singing), then you’re like, “Oh I get it, yeah baby, yeah.” That’s what Quincy was going for. There’s that. Just a little producing technique but that was his brilliance, he was always thinking about how can we maximize his sex appeal? There’s that. Now we go back to the beginning of this when Michael actually asked me to come to the house to potentially do some writing with him. I go there and he says, (mimicking Michael Jackson’s voice) “I have this song. I want you to check it out,” so he plays a demo and what I heard essentially was all the little bottles and all that. Dun, dun, dun-du-dun, dun, dun, and (singing). I heard all that and the chorus, “Keep on with power, don’t stop. Don’t stop ...,” all that stuff and I thought this is really cool. But then he said, “But it needs another part,” so I said, “Well –” Does that [impression] sound like him? It’s pretty good right? It’s good? She’s tripping, she’s like, “Is he in the room?” Trust me I can’t get him out of my head either, trust me. He’s just, “Greg, Greg,” and he used to call me, “Gregory, Gregory,” because my full name is Gregory. “Gregory,” he used to be real country you know. And they used to make fun of me because I loved breakfast, probably my favorite meal of the day. Back then I was really skinny and I could eat like three, four breakfasts at a time and they would all laugh at me, “Oh-ho, look at Greg. He eating all that breakfast.” That’s a side note. He said, “It just needs just one more part,” so I’m sitting there thinking. I’m at the piano and so I think for just a couple minutes and then I came up with: (gets up to play piano) I came up with that, and this happened over the course of, it was very quick because it just hit me, so I said, “Well what do you think?” He goes, “I like it,” I go, “Yeah?” He says, “Yeah.” Well now I’m thinking we got the verse, we got the hook, we got the bridge so that’s pretty much it right? Yeah, so I say, “So you like it right?” He goes, “Yeah.” I said, “Well, you good with this?” He says, “Yeah.” I said, “Well, so can I get a piece?” He says, “Yeah.” I went, “Yeah?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “Well what do you think?” He goes, “What do you think?” I go, “What do you think?” He goes, “What do you – ” This goes on for like – Now, I’m like (screeching noise), the gears are spinning in the head again and I’m like, “OK, alright. Let’s see now.” Now look, you have to understand something. You guys today, you’re very, very business savvy. You guys got your own labels, you probably have your own printing presses, you’ve got everything going on. This is a whole different thing and God bless you for that, that’s great because you should be, but back then I wasn’t one of the smart ones. Anyway, I’m trying to figure out – I start out with, “Let’s see 50%, no, no, that won’t work. 40? Nah.” See I’m talking myself down, this is all going on in a matter of seconds. I’m thinking, “30, 25. Maybe, I don’t know. 20? Could be. 15?” I finally settle on 10. 10%, so I go, “What do you think about 10%?” He goes, “OK.” I went, “Really?” He said, “Yeah.” Greg Phillinganes 10%. He goes, “OK.” I went, “Really?” He said, “Yeah.” I’m flying home. I’m like, “This is great. I made a song with Michael Jackson.” Some time passes and I get something in the mail and I open it up and it’s a contract. I’m rifling through the thing and it says my name at the top; of course they misspelled it. It was a T instead of a P, I didn’t even realize it. I was looking through the thing and then I scroll down and I see 10%. I go, “That’s in there, 10%. I made it, this is great. 10%.” I’m thrilled beyond belief. More time passes and then I’m at home one day and I get a call from one of his managers at that time, it was either his name was Fred DeMann or Ron Weisner, one of those guys called me – I think it was Fred – and he said, “Yeah, you know that contract?” I said, “Yeah, listen I’m just about to send it back, no worries. Thank you so much, this is fantastic.” He says, “Not so fast.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Michael’s been thinking about it and he’s had a – he’s come to the conclusion that what you did was an arrangement. Don’t bother sending that back. Thanks for your service.” Now, I could have been one of those guys to go, “Hell no.” I could have gotten a lawyer and I could have gone at him because this was, by this point, pretty late in the game and the first pressing of the single was already done. I didn’t. I was deeply heartbroken and I let it go. I don’t know what you would have done in that situation, but that’s what I did. I was young and it was Michael Jackson and I thought: I don’t have a chance. I ate it. I was very heartbroken, like I said, and that’s what happened. Now, Quincy didn’t realize – he thought that I was in, he thought that the deal was done and he was thrilled for me and didn’t realize until after the fact. He was upset, too, but it’s nothing he could do either. To show you how close I came to being a co-writer with Michael Jackson, I happen to have here a picture of the first pressing. Would you like to see it? Can we get a closeup? Do you see this right here? OK, watch this. (holds up phone) Are you getting this? Yeah? Can you zoom in right in there? OK. For those of you who can’t – That’s the thing right there. For those of you who can’t see, it says, “Epic, Quincy Jones Productions, “Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough,” M. Jackson, G. Phillinganes.” Don’t clap because all I got is a picture, I didn’t get any royalties. A colleague of mine gave me a 45, the actual 45, I have it at home. Unfortunately, that’s all I got. There’s a lesson in there and you can take it for what it’s worth. It was a tough pill for me to swallow, but on the other side of that I maintained a relationship with him and his brothers throughout the years. The last thing we did together was the 30th anniversary shows at Madison Square Garden just before the tragic 9/11. After everything I’ve been through with Michael, being MD on his solo tours, the Bad and Dangerous tours and all the stuff that I did with the brothers, all the years of relationships, to culminate in that moment where I’m sitting backstage in the dressing room with the brothers at Madison Square Garden and I’m looking them in the face and I’m going, “Fellows, have a great show.” Now, you got to understand that I never imagined that from being in junior high school listening to (sings The Jackson 5’s “I Want You Back”) and thinking that was the most exciting thing since the Beatles, to be in a room with them as their music director telling them to have a great show. Do you understand the magnitude of that? Then they go to Michael’s dressing room and tell him the same thing. It was an unspeakably joyous moment. I lost out on one end but what I gained I don’t think anyone can replace. Jeff “Chairman” Mao What kind of relationship do you feel with this material? You played on it when it was recorded, you’ve toured it, you’ve revisited it in tribute in some instances as we’ve seen. You were co-writing it. Does that change over time? Is the material just the material? Does it change as you get older? Greg Phillinganes That’s kind of deep, Jeff. I never looked at it like that. I don’t know. I think it’s an intrinsic part of my life as well as my career. Of course, I have my actual life, which is my family and my kids, that’s my life. This stuff is what I do. My personal life and my family is who I am. I made those distinctions. I walk around with my own personal sense of joy and accomplishment to know that I was a part of some of the most influential music of the 20th century, but it’s not like I walk around going, “Hey, I’m part of the most influential music of the” – I enjoy the anonymity because, like you, I can go in a grocery store and not get paparazzi out. Yeah, it’s a wonderful legacy to leave behind to my kids so they know that daddy wasn’t just the guy that took out the garbage. The fact that projects like Songs in the Key of Life and Thriller and Off the Wall are still being celebrated today shows you the timeless quality of it and I’m extremely proud to have not only participated in that small way musically but having the relationships that developed over the years, too. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Now you mentioned going into Thriller the expectation level was not anything beyond doing this record. Was that the case? There are stories about how Michael was very disappointed that Off the Wall didn’t win more Grammys or didn’t sell more and he wanted to top himself. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Was that a directive in terms of the actual creative process of making the music? Greg Phillinganes The only directive that we, as the musicians, had was from Quincy – it was to go in and do your best. Michael was at home writing '100 million sales' on the bathroom wall. He took that – I didn’t know all that was going on, but I learned later on that, yes, he was extremely committed and wrote notes about how he wanted to impact the world and how many records he wanted to sell and all that. He was pretty precise about that. We didn’t feel any kind of pressure, because Quincy, no matter what artist he was working with, if you were involved, he just made it fun. He had a very beautiful way of bringing out the best in anyone. That’s all he did. It was just a continuation really, of Off the Wall, when we were all together again, making great music. We didn’t go in saying, “Yes, we’re going to make history, this is going to be incredible!” It wasn’t like that. It was just a natural progression that we all enjoyed being a part of. We were working more with our dear brother Rod Temperton, who recently passed away. He came in with that little bit he called “Thriller,” then everything changed. Jeff “Chairman” Mao What can you tell these guys about Rod Temperton? Who he was, and what his importance is? Greg Phillinganes Where do I start with this guy? Rod Temperton was – you know in high school, in the yearbooks, they have different categories of people? Most likely to succeed, that kind of thing. I would imagine his little bio in that high school book saying, “The guy you would least expect to write massive hits.” He was just this little skinny British guy from a little band called Heatwave, that he was a member of and wrote songs for them, too. Little things like, “Boogie Nights.” “Always and Forever.” “Groove Line,” “Aint’t No Half Steppin,” all these hits. Quincy plucked him out and brought him into the fold and said, “You’re going to write for Michael.” The brilliance of Quincy understanding talent and understanding the potential for expanding that talent. He realized that, or he felt, that Rod would be a great addition, and a key element in the new version of Michael. Rod took on the challenge. Then he understood Michael musically, too, that’s why he fit so well. That’s why he was able to come up with these custom gems, like “Off The Wall,” or “Rock With You.” Songs like that. He was just a brilliant guy. His methodology for song writing – let me tell you, this guy was a consummate song writer. He brought new depth and meaning to the term 'doing your homework.' This guy, in the creation of one song, would come up with 200 titles! Just freaking titles! 200 of them, just so he could pare down and finally nail one to start a concept with. That’s just a song title. He hadn’t written a note yet. I’m just going to come up with options for song titles. He starts with that, and then everything is of painstaking detail. All the little layers and details and parts, he came up with all of them. It’s not like we were improvising. Every part came from him, and we were duplicating it. All the little parts to Thriller, and with all the multi-layers of sounds and parts, that all came from him. That was for every song. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Do you remember the original title to Thriller? Greg Phillinganes “Starlight,” right? Jef “Chairman” Mao Correct, sir. Greg Phillinganes (singing) Starlight! Rod made these fantastic demos and then everything was great until you heard the vocal, because he could not sing. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Let’s listen to one of the demos actually, for “Starlight.” (music: Michael Jackson – “Starlight (demo)” / applause) Greg Phillinganes Not quite the same. But yeah, I think it was Quincy that said, “We need a title with a little more of an edge.” 200 titles later, “Thriller.” OK. Now we’re onto something. That opened up a whole new world. Rod said that he knew that he wanted to have some kind of voice to do this spoken word section. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Did Rod write the spoken word section too? Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao OK. Greg Phillinganes You want to know how he wrote it? He wrote it in the taxi on the way from the airport to the studio. That’s how he come up with all that, “Darkness,” he was in the taxi going, “Darkness falling – ” He’s in a damn taxi! That’s how brilliant he was. He’s like, “Well I need some lyrics here, I’ve got to go to the studio now, right, maybe I’ll just do it now.” Anyway, that’s how that happened. Jeff “Chairman” Mao I think we should listen to this in full. (music: Michael Jackson - “Thriller” / applause) Greg Phillinganes You know it’s good to the last drop. Now I have to say some things about that. It’s good to the last drop. Did you ever imagine that you’d be grooving to a dance tune with a pipe organ in it and Vincent Price rapping, who does that? Come on man, it’s one of the greatest dance tracks of all time. What I wanted to say about Rod, another element of his brilliance was that he made sure that every section of his songs were equally as strong. You know other songs will have a great hook and that’s it – or they’ll have like a really interesting verse and then the chorus just kind of flutters away. With the Rod songs the verse and the chorus and even the bridge, they could be separate songs on their own. Go back and check out his work and you’ll see that’s right. That was his brilliance. The bridge of “Thriller,” that’s a song right there. That’s just the bridge. That was the level of quality that he brought to every song no matter who the artist was. Even like with George Benson, “Give Me The Night,” the same thing. If you listen to that the bridge and the hook and the verse could be songs on their own. Yeah, “Love X Love,” all that stuff so there’s that. Again, people ask me do I remember what it was like being in the studio. I remember playing the parts and listening on a massive JBL speakers in the control room and it was just blasting and we’re just rolling and it’s so much fun reproducing the million parts that Rod came up with and then the big pipe organ sound at the end. All that’s me, it was crazy. It was just a crazy ride and unforgettable. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Do you have a preference between Off the Wall and Thriller musically? Greg Phillinganes No, but as I said to Spike Lee when he asked me, he sort of asked that same question. He did a documentary on Off the Wall and my answer was, well there would be no Thriller without Off the Wall. Thriller was the progression from Off the Wall but Off the Wall had a uniqueness to it because there was a bit more of an innocence there. It was his coming out again as an adult so it was a celebration of that. There was this charm to it. There were more organic elements to it and Thriller was just a bigger production overall with fantastic songs on it, no question about it. Off the Wall played a huge, significant role in the creation of Thriller. You wouldn’t have had that without Off the Wall. Jeff “Chairman” Mao The songs off Thriller that are the biggest hits are also in some ways very dark. I mean even subject matter-wise. It’s a different – when you say innocence, you know. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. There’s a difference there as well I’d say. Jeff “Chairman” Mao I think you can also hear in Michael’s voice when you listen to certain songs... Greg Phillinganes Yeah, there was just a part of a natural maturity from the time spent between those albums and everything that was going on in his life and his development. Jeff “Chairman” Mao You’ve had the opportunity to visit his material as well in different contexts. Greg Phillinganes Yeah. Jeff “Chairman” Mao If you maybe want to briefly explain what those contexts are in recent years. Greg Phillinganes Oh, you mean the Cirque du Soleil thing? Jeff “Chairman” Mao Yeah, just real quick. Greg Phillinganes I was asked by the Michael Jackson estate and Cirque du Soleil to be the music director for a little project they were working on called Michael Jackson Immortal. I don’t know if any of you saw it, but it was a traveling arena show and it was celebrating Michael’s music and it involved the classic elements of Cirque du Soleil with a band that I put together and singers and dancers and everything. The star of the show obviously was Michael, and we played to his vocals but also to custom arranged tracks of many of his hits from different eras in his career. We all played in sync to a clear track, but the star obviously was his voice. It was interesting. It was fun. There were elements of it that were enjoyable. There were elements of it that were not enjoyable. It was a pretty unique experience I’d say, and yeah I guess it worked. It went all around the world. I did it for 18 months, and after I left it still went on for almost another year. Jeff ”Chairman” Mao What do you want people to remember about Michael Jackson as a person? Greg Phillinganes That he cared. He cared about life, he cared about people, he cared about music. He was a dreamer. He was very quietly passionate about all things about, all aspects of life. He loved to laugh. He was a big goofball. He was extremely sensitive. He was a complex individual and he had many different sides, as we all do really. I mean there’s no surprise there. He just cared. There were things that he felt that were in his control to do, and there were things that he felt he couldn’t control. There was a complexity there, but he did love life and he felt that he understood his role to the best that he could have. There were things that he did that were unhealthy, that didn’t necessarily help him continue. Then people also don’t realize that when he had that accident during that Pepsi commercial and his scalp caught on fire, they didn’t realize the intense pain that is caused by that. People talk about in later years the dependency on pain killers, but man, you have third degree burns on your scalp, that’s going to leave a mark. The dependency on these pain killers was one of the things that brought him down. The strength he had, to try to continue as an artist through all of those adversities is really quite remarkable, it’s really stunning. He was a fighter. Then he got to the point I think, where he was losing the fight, but he was a fighter for sure. If there was any one thing I would say that he just cared. Oh, you know what? We were working on Destiny, I think the question was raised of what kind of equipment I had and I remember saying that I didn’t have an electric piano, I didn’t have a Fender Rhodes, you know. Time passed and thought nothing else about it. Then I’m at home one day and the door bell rings and it’s this delivery guy and he says, “Are you Greg Phillinganes?” I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Well I have something for you.” He opens the back of this truck and out comes this box with a Fender Rhodes in it and there’s a note and it says, “Dear Greg, I know you didn’t have one of these, so I thought you might like it.” It was a typewritten note and it says Michael Jackson, but he didn’t sign it. (laughs) He sent me a Fender Rhodes electric piano and it’s still in use, I still have it, it’s a beautiful 73 keyboard Rhodes and a few years back I had it tweaked and refurbished and it sounds beautiful. That’s an example of his care for people. Jeff “Chairman” Mao You’ve been blessed to experience some real full circle type of moments in your career... Greg Phillinganes Oh my lord, yes. Jeff “Chairman” Mao From starting with Stevie, playing on his Songs in the Key of Life Tour last year... Greg Phillinganes You got to hear the progression of this, you got to dig the progression of this. Now you know I started with him on Songs in the Key of Life, right? That’s the first bit, then the second bit was, he would have these annual Christmas charity events called, what was it called? I see it in my head, I can’t – anyway, it was a Christmas charity event. I can’t remember the name of it. I’m having a brain fart right now. Let’s see. A few years back, he decided he wanted to perform Songs in the Key of Life live and it would be the first time ever. There was that full circle moment, and then after that, touring that album, that’s another full circle moment, and then there was a TV show, a Grammy tribute to him honoring that album that I won an Emmy for. There’s that full circle moment. There’s like four full circle moments just off of that album. It’s mind blowing. I’ve had a couple other full circle moments with other artists, but just that album alone, I mean, my experience with him, literally, was the gift that keeps on giving. Jeff “Chairman” Mao Yeah, yeah. Why do you think you’ve been so fortunate? Greg Phillinganes It’s all God. It has nothing to do with me. He gives you these dreams and then your belief in those dreams and in Him, He lays it all out. I could’ve never imagined, ever, ever, man, being a kid in Detroit and listening to these artists, from Stevie to Eric Clapton to The Beatles to Pink Floyd. I never imagined I’d be in their company, working with them, in some cases, having relationships with them. I just never imagined. It’s been a wonderful, wonderful ride and we’ll see what happens from this point on. A lot of memories there. (applause)