Sly & Robbie

Sly Dunbar

It’s great to be here in Barcelona.

Benji B

I feel super-privileged to be doing this because we have with us the most famous drum and bass section of all time. Please join me in welcoming Sly & Robbie. [applause] I believe it’s right to say that since you started working together in 1975 that you’ve played on over 50,000 records. Is that right?

Robbie Shakespeare

Some say 200,000, some say one million. But I hope it reaches two million, probably three.

Benji B

I did read one estimate that says if you count every use of every rhythm you’ve ever played on, then it’s not unfeasible that it’s over 200,000, which officially makes you the most prolific recording artists of all time. I think that’s worth a round of applause as well [applause].

Robbie Shakespeare

Thank the world, thank the world.

Benji B

So, we’re all music fans in this room, and I think it’s fair to say that everyone here has a record you’ve played on, even if they don’t know it. So can you run down a few of the names of the people whose records you’ve played on, both in Jamaica and internationally?

Sly Dunbar

From the Jamaican side we’ve probably worked with everyone – Bob Marley, Dennis Brown, Gregory Isaacs, Mighty Diamonds, Toots & the Maytals, Jimmy Cliff, Peter Tosh, Bunny Wailer, Nambo Robinson [laughs and points]. Everybody. Culture… I could go on and on and on. On the international market, we’ve worked with James Brown, Carly Simon, Nona Hendryx, No Doubt, Joe Cocker, Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, Herbie Hancock, Grace Jones, Gwen Guthrie, Ian Dury, Simply Red, Serge Gainsbourg. From Brazil, there was this girl we did a song with that went to No 1, the one with Ben Harper singing on it… I can’t remember. Probably, when I’ve finished I’ll remember and bring it up.

Benji B

That’s just a rough idea of all the ground we’ve got to cover in the next 90 minutes or so. But one question I often wonder about with you guys is that in 1975 you were already such established musicians in your own right… what made you gravitate to each other and collaborate?

Sly Dunbar

It was like magic, I always say. When we were kids in Jamaica we used to go to a place called Idlers Rest, which is downtown. All the musicians used to go there to look for work, everyone knows you, it’s where you go to look for session work. I used to see Robbie there sometimes and we’d talk, but I used to play in a club on Red Hill Road – in Kingston, we called it called Las Vegas. Robbie was playing in this club, too, so when I got a break I’d go and listen to his band and when he got a break he’d listen to my band. There were a lot of songs he was playing on for Bunny Lee & the Aggrovators, and I asked him if some of these were songs that he was playing on, because we used to play some on the bandstand. And he said, “Yes.” We started talking and one day we were in Idlers Rest and I asked him to drop me by Channel One because I thought there was a session, and I told him to check back with me the next day because there might be some session work. We used to control the sessions, so he came and checked me. But the first session we really played on was a session that Bunny Lee and Robbie organized together and he told me to play, I think it was a John Holt song called “I Forgot To Say I Love You”.

I think it was a John Holt session, but that was the first one I played on.

Benji B

You mentioned Channel One and the Aggrovators. Can you explain to people who aren’t familiar with them what they are?

Sly Dunbar

Channel One is a recording studio, one of the best in Jamaica. And this is where Robbie and I got this great break in life because the owner of the studio loved bass and drums and took great pleasure in presenting it right. We’d be there all the time recording, and before they got the sound, we sort of brought the sound to them and it took us two years to really get it where we wanted it. For us, that’s our template that brought us to the international work.

Benji B

Can you explain the scene of the big backing bands like the Aggrovators and the Revolutionaries?

Sly Dunbar

I’m going to let Robbie explain the Aggrovators.

Robbie Shakespeare

The Aggrovators was a studio backing band, Bunny Lee named it. It was Santa on drums, Chinna on guitar, Bernard “Touter” Harvey or Tyrone Downie on keyboards, it depends. But the main ones were me, Santa and Chinna.

Benji B

And what period are we talking about?

Robbie Shakespeare

Some Slim Smith, Delroy Wilson, Johnny Clarke, Cornel Campbell.

Benji B

So this was the early ’70s.

Robbie Shakespeare

Yes. I was the one who’d show Johnny Clarke into the studio saying to give him a chance. He used to be there every day begging, “Please, please, I can sing.” I’d say, “Move, studio idler.” We used to call him “studio idler” before we called him by his right name, Johnny Clarke. But I said, “Give the youth a chance, let’s hear him sing.” I said to him, “Don’t let me down, or I’ll run you out myself.” We went in the studio and the first song came out, and it was, “Whoa, he can sing!” So, I started guiding him through his career.

Benji B

So, you’re responsible for putting him on the map?

Robbie Shakespeare

Yeah, a little bit.

Benji B

Were you involved in a backing band too?

Sly Dunbar

Yeah, I was involved in the Revolutionaries. We used to have a studio in Waterhouse, where a friend of mine had a soundsystem, and we’d go there and listen to all these foreign songs. We sat there and said if we can get this drum sound into reggae we’d be onto something. I went to Channel One studio and met Ernest [Ranglin], and we were talking about drum sounds and I was playing Philadelphia International records, one of my favorite labels. I said, “If we can get the drum sound something like this, it would work.” It took us two years to get close and start recording songs like “M.P.L.A.”, “I Need a Roof“ for Mighty Diamonds and a couple of others. And the sound broke out and everyone was trying to get to Channel One because they liked the sound. We stayed there for a while until the studio closed down and we had to take up places in other studios. And we started doing our own production in Channel One.

Benji B

It’s often documented, the rivalry between labels. Was there rivalry between bands too?

Sly Dunbar

No, we all looked out for one another. It was the labels who were fighting, not the musicians.

Benji B

And Robbie, how did you first hear Sly’s drumming?

Robbie Shakespeare

He used to play in Skin, Flesh & Bones on Tit For Tat [records]. During the time of recording, that was my main source of getting a little bread. At night he played in a band called Big Relation. There was a club near where Sly played on Red Hill Road called Evil People where the Fab 5 were resident. But the Fab 5 and the owner of the club had a falling out, so they called the owner of the band I was playing in to fill that post. Touter, who was in Inner Circle, said, “Let’s go over Tit For Tat to check Sly.” I said, “Who’s Sly?” “Sly’s a drummer.” “Alright, come on.” We went over there and Sly is sitting down on the drums, and I said, “Whoa, he can beat a drum. That’s a good sound, I want a session with that youth.” So, the next morning I told Bunny [“Striker”] Lee, “Striker, I found a wicked drummer, I want to use him on a session. Book the time.” So, I called Sly and we started playing and everyone was jumping, “Whoa yeah!” The studio was packed, and they said, “Yeah, that combination is wicked.” It started from there.

Benji B

And you both knew the first time you played together.

Robbie Shakespeare

Yeah, I was putting a band together for Peter Tosh, Word, Sound & Power, and he said, “Is Sly coming?” I said, “Yeah.”

Benji B

And you toured quite heavily with Peter Tosh.

Robbie Shakespeare:

Yes, we toured a lot. Peter was Word, me and Sly were Sound & Power.

Benji B

Before you got involved in the Aggrovators, did you have a mentor, someone you studied to learn bass?

Robbie Shakespeare

Aggrovators weren’t the first studio thing. They were always in the studio, but I played with Joe Gibbs, the regular record people, Lee “Scratch” Perry. Sometimes as individuals we’d play for other people. Family Man was the main man for me who first played bass and made it sound nice. So I learned off him.

Benji B

Which band was he from?

Robbie Shakespeare

Aston “Family Man” Barrett is now playing with The Wailers and was Bob Marley’s bass player for years and years. But at the time he was in the Hippy Boys, rehearsing. You don’t know about Family Man? You know, they say he’s bad [laughs].

Benji B

And what about you Sly, who was your mentor?

Sly Dunbar

My mentor was the drummer for the Skatalites, Lloyd Knibbs. And I used to listen a lot to the drummer for Booker T & the MG’s, Al Jackson, and a lot of Philadelphia. And there are other drummers in Jamaica, like Santa and Carly from The Wailers, Winston Grennan, Paul Douglas, Mikey “Boo” [Richards]. I respect all these drummers and have learnt a lot from them. From them, I listened and created my own style. They played some things I copied. Other things I recreated.

Benji B

And who gave you your nickname?

Sly Dunbar

I was in a band called the Volcanos for three months in a Jamaican hotel. I used to listen to a lot of Sly & the Family Stone, still do, and the bandleader said, “Anything but Sly, Sly, Sly?” “No, Sly’s the boss.” So everything I did, they called me Sly. When I came back to town it stuck.

Benji B

So apart from Sly Stone, what were the biggest influences from outside of Jamaica?

Sly Dunbar

A lot of Motown, James Brown, Stax, the Beatles.

Benji B

There seems to be a tradition of covering US R&B songs in Jamaica.

Robbie Shakespeare

Jamaica is a place that loves a great music, so if we can do a good cover version of a song, we go for it. Songs like Randy Newman’s “Baltimore,” [which was covered by the Tamlins]… I always enjoyed that song. Not just us, but other producers would cover a lot of songs, anything they can make a good version out of.

Benji B

How did your style change when you became producers yourselves?

Sly Dunbar

We became producers because the radio was paying all these recordings for the producers and they were hitting. I looked down and said to Robbie, “What’s the future for us? We’re not owning ourselves on tape, producers are.” So, Robbie said, “I think we should try to own our own material, but we’re not going to stop doing sessions. We’ll play every day.” So, we started doing songs.

Robbie Shakespeare

Hold on. Even before we were producing ourselves, we were producing other people, not knowing we were producing. When we were in the studio we’d arrange the song for them, “This sounds good and that sounds good… Singer, sing this song instead of that one.” We’d arrange and produce, not knowing we were producing for the producer. Because the man who says he’s the producer is around the back, he can’t do anything. We’d say, “Ready now!,” and he’d tell the engineer, “Take it!”, and then he’d say, “How’s that sound, Robbie? How’s that sound, Sly?” And we’d go around and listen and tell him. So, when we got really serious, sometimes we’d play a rhythm for a singer and he’d say, “I don’t like it.” “No, man, that’s perfect.” “I don’t like it.” OK, we’ll take that for ourselves. So, the ones that people rejected, we recorded them ourselves. Your turn, Sly.

Sly Dunbar

Picking up, we started doing our own stuff and none of the singers wanted to sign for us because we were just two little musicians. Robbie called up Gregory [Isaacs] because they were good friends. He came and sang six songs in a day, and the next day he came in to voice, and he got there before us. And one of the songs that came out of that session was our first No 1 in Jamaica, called “Soon Forward.” To this day, Gregory and us are good friends. If we’re doing a stage show in Jamaica, no one can go on before him – he wants to open the concert and then go home. We started owning our stuff and Chris Blackwell from Island Records… we just want to do stuff for the people, follow in the footsteps of Coxsone or Berry Gordy, and he took us up and wanted to work with us and we started working with him, producing Black Uhuru, Ini Kamoze, all those people. But what we had in mind was forming a young Motown in Jamaica, we’re still aiming at that.

Benji B

Tell me about your work with Black Uhuru.

Sly Dunbar

Michael Rose was a friend of mine, we grew up together, his brother and I were good friends. He was a singer, too, but before that Michael was a DJ. I was trying to help him get in the production business, but his brother died in a car accident. Michael came to see me and told me that. I told him we were down at Channel One every day and to come down and check me, so he came down and we talked. He left and came back with some people and said, “This is Duckie and Puma and we have a group called Black Uhuru.” We started trying some songs, doing a version of “No No No,” a Wailers song called “Let Him Go” and “Sun Is Shining.” And I said to him, “We can cut some original songs because everyone likes the sound.” The first songs we recorded were “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner“, “Shine Eye Gal“ – we did six songs that day – “Plastic Smile“. The first one that came out was “General Penitentiary“. Before it came out, we had no money to release them, so we cut them on dubplate and gave them to the great U-Roy, who had a soundsystem. I can’t remember the name of it, but it was the No1 soundsystem. So I said to him, “We’ll give you these four records.” He played them for one year before any of them were released. When anyone’s going to the dance they’d go there, because no one else had them and he wouldn’t play them before 1 o'clock. So that’s how we got started.

Benji B

Which shall we play, “Shine Eye Gal“ or “General Penitentiary“?

Sly Dunbar

“Shine Eye" is bad.

(music: [Black Uhuru – “Shine Eye Gal” / applause)

Robbie Shakespeare

[Referring to playing instruments on stage] Thank you, that was a stage version.

Sly Dunbar

Recorded very differently, because it was originally done in 1976, so we have to update it.

Robbie Shakespeare

Keith Richards was playing guitar on it, he’s the one going [makes aggressive guitar sound].

Benji B

How did you first hook up with [the Rolling Stones]?

Robbie Shakespeare

Mick Jagger and Keith Richards came to Jamaica for the Peace Concert. They wanted to sign a reggae act, so when they saw Peter [Tosh], they were interested in him. Peter, myself and Herbie Miller were invited to New York to discuss the contract. We went in there and talk, talk, talk and it was a done deal. We went on tour with them. What year was that, Sly? The Some Girls tour.

Sly Dunbar

It was 1978.

Robbie Shakespeare

Me and Keith were tight, like Sly & Robbie. And the drummer Charlie Watts, also tight, like Sly & Robbie. Keith used to come to Jamaica. He has a house in Jamaica now, but he used to be at my house regularly. One time, he came in and heard us record and said, “Can I play?” I said, “Yeah, man.” So, he went to his car and pulled out his guitar, came in and played. We did two tracks that day.

Sly Dunbar

“Dirty Harry.”

Benji B

What was touring with the Rolling Stones like?

Robbie Shakespeare

Something you’ve never experienced before, totally different. There used to be four, five, six bands playing. But when the Rolling Stones came into the compound, everyone else would go to their dressing room. You couldn’t walk around, these big security would come around, [affects deep voice] “The Stones are coming.” But they’d say, “Oh, the Rastas… They’re OK, they’re good.” Because Mick and Keith and Charlie would say, “Where’s Sly, where’s Robbie?” They’d come to our dressing room before going to their own, and we’d play cards and joke.

Benji B

And your musical collaboration with Mick Jagger went on quite a while, right?

Robbie Shakespeare

Yeah, we produced an album with Peter Tosh and we invited him on there to do a song. And he did “Walk and Don’t Look Back”. When Peter was on tour he’d sneak on to perform it with him. But we were tight like that. Even when we did our album that won a Grammy, Friends, we asked Keith to play guitar and he did, because we did, [sings] “I can’t get no satisfaction.” Mick was busy, couldn’t get to sing it. That would've been good, we wanted him to sing it.

Benji B

Despite being so busy with all your work on the international scene, touring with the Rolling Stones around the world, you always made time to release stuff in Jamaica, which has its own unique recording industry as well. It’s remarkable that you managed to balance both. How did you do it?

Robbie Shakespeare

They used to say Sly & Robbie must take drugs [laughs]. We used to be in the studio from about 10am, and a lot of the time we’d rehearse until about 7 or 8pm. When we were touring, most of the time we’d come straight from the studio. Finish playing, go home, sleep; the next morning we’re back in the studio, just keeping it going. Now we’ve slowed down a bit, we plan it better. We record a lot of songs, check the tape back and then and say, “Hmm, that song will work on that.” There’s always music there to work on. We know we can call the engineer, and say, “Set that up, we’re coming in.” Much easier now than then.

Benji B

Your dedication to Jamaica at the time is demonstrated by starting Taxi Records, which can’t have been easy with everything else going on. Why did you start it?

Robbie Shakespeare

I had a label called Bar Bells. Sly had Taxi, so we stuck with that. Sly used to come to the studio in a taxi with a little driver we called Shorty. We used to get a lot of fun with Sly and that driver… He was a ton of fun, so as soon as Sly said he was starting a label, we said, “Yeah, Taxi.” So we stuck with that because it was a fun thing. Shorty. [laughs]

Sly Dunbar

One day we were going to the Sunsplash… Shorty had his car, taking him, me and a friend of his daughter, to Montego Bay and the car ran out of water. We had to get out and push, then go and perform. But it was fun [laughs]. We had to put water in the radiator, start it and jump in, Kingston-bound. We’d laugh and say, “Tomorrow, back to the studio.” But we’d spend days in the studio, more time there than at home.

Benji B

So, that’s where the name Taxi comes from.

Sly Dunbar

I used to take it late at night, when I finished “Tit for Tat” he would be out there to take me to the studio. I never bought a car so I had to take a taxi. He owned a car, I bought it for him, so I just said, “Take me to the studio, and you can do anything you want to do.”

Benji B

Who were the artists that you put out on that label over the years?

Sly Dunbar

Gregory Isaacs, Black Uhuru, Jimmy Riley, the Tamlins, Ini Kamoze, Junior Delgado, Dennis Brown, a guy who used to sing in the Chi-Lites and the band itself, the Taxi Gang, with Nambo, Dean Fraser, Robbie Lyn, and all these people.

Benji B

How did you get the money together? That’s not easy, starting your own label.

Sly Dunbar

When we were touring with Peter and the Rolling Stones we were getting $100 a week, but our lunch money was $240.

Benji B

So they gave you $100 for the week but $240 for lunch? OK [laughs].

Sly Dunbar

So me and Robbie came up with a plan to come away with some money. I had this friend called Gary and I’d tell him to get a rubbish bag and go in after breakfast and pick up all the boiled eggs and bread, sling the bag over his shoulder and take it on the bus. When we were touring with the Stones we’d take jerk chicken and use that as our food, that and juices. So we saved the money and took it back to Jamaica. I bought a pair of Syndrums for $500, and some tape, a ticket back to Jamaica and out of the money we booked Channel One studio for a week. And out of that came “Baltimore” and some Black Uhuru stuff. We did a Black Uhuru album from it called Sinsemilla, and Chris Blackwell signed them from that.

Robbie Shakespeare

The first thing with Black Uhuru was Showcase.

Sly Dunbar

We did that the same time as the songs we gave to U-Roy.

Robbie Shakespeare

We couldn’t put it out for about a year because we didn’t have enough money, everything was on tape.

Benji B

So it’s fair to say Taxi was founded on lunch money [laughter] .

Sly Dunbar

Yeah, that’s cool. Garbage bag money. Lunch money. Garbage bag sounds more roots, yeah?

Benji B

So how did you first meet Chris Blackwell?

Sly Dunbar

Ijahman Levi said his boss wants to meet us. “His boss, who’s his boss?” So one night I went by the Hilton Hotel and Ijahman was there and he said, “Come on and meet the boss.” It was Chris Blackwell. I said, “Oh wicked,” and that’s how I got to meet him.

Robbie Shakespeare

The first time I met him was through a movie star named Esther Anderson. She came for me and said Chris Blackwell wants to meet me. I said, “Who’s Chris Blackwell?” She said, “Bob Marley’s boss.” He wanted to know who the man who played bass on “Concrete Jungle” was. “Oh, you played bass? Nice.” That was it. Years went by, and Chris knows about Sly & Robbie. Virgin signed that thing with Sly and he look vexed, he wanted Sly & Robbie. But he let us play with Grace Jones, and that was his way of getting us into his camp. I was a Compass Point All Star, and then he signed Sly & Robbie…

Sly Dunbar

That was in 1980. He came to Jamaica and Robbie signed a contract and the rest is history. When he asked us to do the Grace Jones record, he called us up to his New York apartment and played some Grace Jones stuff to us, and gave us an album, which to this day I haven’t listened to it. He called and said we’re going to Nassau to record. When we got there, Robbie said, “What are we going to do?” Nobody knows, so Chris said he was going to make some music, but they were thinking of rehearsing and then going into to the studio. Robbie said, “No, go into the studio and record everything we rehearse.” So, we did that with the engineer and co-producer Alex Sadkin. One day for drums, one day for bass, one day for guitar. I remember the first tune recorded was “Warm Leatherette,” and I heard it played back and “Wow!” Then, the second one was “Private Life,” one of my favorite records.

Benji B

And there’s a serious dub version. Can I play that?

Sly Dunbar

Yeah.

Benji B

When was it recorded?

Sly Dunbar

1980.

(music: Grace Jones – “Private Life” (dub mix) / applause)

Benji B

That was a pretty amazing period, the Compass Point All Stars.

Sly Dunbar

Yeah, it was Robbie, myself, Mikey Chung, Sticky on percussion, Tyrone Downie from the Wailers, Wally Badarou from France and Barry Reynolds from England. So, it was a cultural experience taking all these people and putting it together.

Benji B

And where was Compass Point?

Sly Dunbar

In Nassau, Bahamas. Everything was one take, no second takes.

Benji B

One take for everything, no exceptions?

Robbie Shakespeare

In a two-week period we did over 30 tracks. We ran out of songs, that’s why it took so long. We had to wait for the songs to come in. They were faxing in lyrics for Grace from all over the world.

Benji B

So, would you put down the rhythm track, then Grace voice it? Or would you write it together?

Sly Dunbar

She’d be inside the studio with us.

Robbie Shakespeare

She’d be at my right side, she wouldn’t leave. They weren’t coming fast enough. Usually, you could do 30 or 40 tracks in two weeks, but we had to put her on basic tracks.

Sly Dunbar

She was inside the studio for “Pull Up to the Bumper” and “Nipple to the Bottle,” because we wrote those songs for her. We had to lay the rhythm down and then hum the melody, so she could get it from the records. There was no song written to them.

Benji B

It sounds to me as though you were the real producers on those records.

Sly Dunbar

No, not really, we helped out in a lot of ways, but Chris Blackwell and Alex Sadkin were the producers. But they would make us experiment and do anything we wanted. There was no tension…

Robbie Shakespeare

[Whispers] Silent producers.

Sly Dunbar

[Laughs] One cut and it was done.

Benji B

So, “Pull Up to the Bumper” was done in one take.

Sly Dunbar

Everything was one take. Once we tried a second take, on a tune called “Cry Now, Laugh Later,” and it was the first one we used, it never works.

Benji B

I know you wanted me to play this.

Sly Dunbar

This song is “Pull Up to the Bumper.” It was originally called “Peanut Butter.”

Benji B

I have that as well.

Sly Dunbar

By Gwen Guthrie, right? She cut it later. But Grace did it and changed the lyric.

Sly Dunbar

That’s the instrumental version.

Benji B

So how long before it came out?

Sly Dunbar

It was put down on tape a year before it came out. It came out as an instrumental in Jamaica and Junior Tucker was supposed to sing it. But when we met Grace for the next album she started crying that she wanted that rhythm, because she’d heard it playing somewhere and she wanted that rhythm. And they brought up this girl named Dana Mano and co-wrote the lyrics back around the rhythm.

Benji B

The first time I bought that it was on the other side to the “Genius of Love” break. You were playing on that as well?

Sly Dunbar

No, but we were in Nassau when it was recorded.

(music: Grace Jones – “Pull Up to the Bumper” / applause)

Benji B

I was lucky enough to interview Wally Badarou at the Red Bull Music Academy in Melbourne and he told us some amazing stories about that era, including the time you were working with James Brown. [Laughter] He skimmed around it and suggested what the vibe was, but maybe you can tell us what that was like?

Sly Dunbar

It was nice. James Brown was his typical self, soul brother. I think Al Sharpton was his hairdresser at the time.

Benji B

Al Sharpton was his hairdresser!

Sly Dunbar

[Laughs] In Nassau the studio would be over here, and over there is the ocean. Al Sharpton would do his hair before he got to the studio and when he came in, it was like he was performing. He called Mikey “Montego.” We played two songs for him. It was great, we learnt a lot, I look up to him, he’s the Godfather.

Benji B

But what’s the working process? He’s regimented, I imagine you’re too individual for him.

Sly Dunbar

No, we wrote a song and wanted him to sing it. He was saying Robbie and myself should sing it and he would go [does James Brown scream]. We said, “No, James, we want you to sing it.” But I saw the record at Island Records some time later, and the flipside was one of the songs we’d played for him. I think Chris Blackwell gave him the multitrack tape and he put it out.

Benji B

So who were some of the other artists who passed through while you were there?

Sly Dunbar

Iron Maiden. We did Mick Jagger’s solo album at that time.

Benji B

And how much influence was the early-’80s New York disco thing having on reggae?

Sly Dunbar

We used to listen to it because it was happening, but I listened more to Philadelphia because that’s where disco came from. But what we did was transform anything we heard into reggae. “Buckingham Palace,” Peter Tosh, came off like disco. But it was a pattern that Robbie and myself had used for a long time, we did it on “Sun is Shining” for Black Uhuru and on an album called Rasta Fiesta. We were in the studio and Robbie said, “Play that beat again.” We put the drum and bass down and Peter came up with the lyrics.

Benji B

Back in Jamaica in the mid-’80s, things were going a bit digital. Can you explain about the Syndrums, because you were one of the first to use them. The Simmons drums first?

Sly Dunbar

It was the Syndrum first. I got one – two little Caribbean musicians – and we brought it home to experiment. But then again, I saw an advertisement for Simmons, so I ordered one, a red, green and gold one. But then I canceled it because I didn’t know what I was buying. I think Boy George and Culture Club bought it. I said, “Really? Now I’ve got to get it.” So, I went and bought another one for when we were cutting the Black Uhuru Anthem album. They sent it down to Nassau. The first time I played it on a record was the Rolling Stones’ Too Much Blood album, there’s a track where I did a snare with the Simmons for the first time. Mick said, “Come and overdub this.” So I went and overdubbed it. I knew it was going to be the age of electronics, so I started getting into it. I used a Simmons on the Anthem album and a couple of records in Jamaica. A lot of people even now in Jamaica ask me for the Simmons, they want to hear that sound again. So I’ve acquired a DD-20 Roland kit, which I’m going to start using in the studio. People want to hear something fresh again, cool it off, go back to the real acoustic stuff again. But electronics is good. Analog is also good.

Benji B

Then you started incorporating an MPC into your work.

Sly Dunbar

The first person in Jamaica to have one was Robbie Lyn, the keyboard player, and I borrowed his for a Black Uhuru tune “Somebody’s Watching You.” Then I bought one for myself. I always had a drum machine but most Jamaican drummers were scared of them. I said, “Why?” I started programming everything, I bought an MPC, a DMX, I bought the SP-1200, I have now the [MPC] 500, I have all the machines. I just want to make beats and it’s cool to sit and program something you’re feeling. But most drummers won’t program anything. Out of all of them, I’m the only one who’ll program. They think they don’t need it, they’re great drummers, and nobody would ask them to program. It’s another way of recording, so I wanted to get into it.

Benji B

What was the actual turning point for dancehall, when it became digital?

Sly Dunbar

In the late ’80s, King Jammy was putting things out. He had an eight-track studio.

Benji B

“Sleng Teng”?

Sly Dunbar

Before “Sleng Teng,” Steely & Clevie were doing things for him. I had a drum machine but I couldn’t use it, no one wanted me to. They said, “You’re crazy, we want you to play live.” Then we did a song called “Herbsman Hustling” for Sugar Minott for ourselves, nobody would believe it. I said to Willie Lindo, “The drum machine can play reggae.” He said, “No, man. Come on, Sly.” “Yeah.” “OK, we’re gonna book a session.” So him and Beres Hammond took them to the studio, laid seven beats down, left and went on tour. Then, I heard this Beres Hammond tune. I said to Willie, “That Beres Hammond tune is bad, who did the drumming?” He started laughing, “That’s one of the beats you left for us.” And that was one of Beres’s biggest hits, so I told them a drum machine could work! Producers started going for the drum machine. The sound was easier to get on tape. You didn’t have to mic up the drummers and stuff. But it’s back and forth with both things.

Benji B

You used it a lot with the Chaka Demus & Pliers stuff?

Sly Dunbar

I used the MPC-60 and the 3000 on their stuff. When the deejays came in, they were more into the digital. “Murder She Wrote” was played on the MPC-60.

Benji B

Can we check that out?

Sly Dunbar

This is “Murder She Wrote,” it was done originally as an instrumental, but we ran the guitar through it for three minutes. Chaka Demus had been saying for a long time, “When are you going to put me on a record?” So I called him and said, “The rhythm is here, come for it.” He came and voiced it in ten minutes. He said, “Is it OK?” We mixed it, someone said it was distorted somewhere. I said, “Boy, I’m not mixing it again, if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.” And the rest is history.

(music: Chaka Demus & Pliers – “Murder She Wrote” / applause)

Thank you.

Benji B

I feel we should also touch on “Bam Bam,” because I just asked whether that was the same time and you said it was the same day.

Sly Dunbar

Same day. Pliers said, “I know ‘Bam Bam’ can fit on that rhythm.” I said, “Sing it, I’ll push the red light button.” He sang it one time and left. That was it.

Benji B

Same day.

(music: Chaka Demus & Pliers – “Bam Bam” / applause)

Sly Dunbar

This recording was done on an Akai 12-track recording, the board that used the cassette. Just 12-tracks, that’s where it came from [applause].

Benji B

What kind of technology are you using now?

Sly Dunbar

Mostly in Jamaica, people are into the Pro Tools. With Pro Tools, what you put in, it’s still got to have a good groove to make the record. A lot of people are depending on it, but I’m doing it a bit eight for them. But today a hit record can be made on a cassette. Most of the Studio One songs with the Skatalites were done on a one-track and still sound great today. So, I think a record can be made on a cassette.

Benji B

You as a duo have been responsible for reshaping the landscape of Jamaican music over the last 20 years and more. But as a drummer you’ve never rested with what was popular and always pushing for a new rhythm. With the “Rockers” rhythm you established a whole new beat that rejuvenated a lot of singers’ careers. When did that come about?

Sly Dunbar

When I was 15 years old, Ansell Collins took me to the studio to record a song called “Night Doctor.” Then I heard a song called “Moonlight Lover.” They were playing this cymbal called the fly cymbal. Later that year he asked me to play the same thing on this single called “Double Barrel,” and Bunny Lee gave it the name “fly cymbal.” That took off in Jamaica, but I played it after “Double Barrel” for Al Brown, “Here I Am Baby” and for Delroy Wilson on “It’s a Shame.”

Benji B

Do you want to play the “Night Doctor” track or “Double Barrel”? What kind of drumming is this?

Sly Dunbar

This is an acoustic drum kit, done at Federal Studios.

(music: The Upsetters – “Night Doctor”)

Benji B

That’s the one drop?

Sly Dunbar

Yes, that’s the one drop, done when I was 15, the first record I played on.

Benji B

What about “Double Barrel”?

Sly Dunbar

This is the second record I played on, when I was 16. This was a million seller, went to No 1 in England.

(music: Dave & Ansell Collins – “Double Barrel / applause)

Benji B

So that was when you were 16?

Sly Dunbar

Yes. Ansell Collins. When I was young he played in a band, and I couldn’t play the floor show, so he would play the floor show for me, then give me back the drums and I would play for the dance and party people.

Benji B

Is there anyone under you now studying, someone you’ve influenced massively?

Sly Dunbar

There’s no one. There was a guy called Barnabas, who used to be around us at Channel One, he used to sit there when I was playing. Other people play what I’m playing, but no one comes and asks me. I just work at the formula for myself. I don’t think I’m a great drummer, I just work at a formula. I like to make people dance and I listen to a lot of African rhythms. When I was doing the dub thing, I was watching a film and they were just beating shakers and dancing, so I thought there must be a way we can get people dancing in reggae just to drum and bass. Robbie and myself started working, playing patterns and changing stuff, and it worked – you could have the drum and bass playing all the way through with nothing else.

Benji B

I read a story about when Bob Marley came back in 1977 to work with Lee Perry and wanted a steppers beat.

Sly Dunbar

I saw him that night and Lee Perry asked if I could do the session with Bob and I said, “Sure.” I went over to Lee Perry’s studio, the Black Ark, and Bob said he wanted a one drop, but not just any one drop, he wanted a straight four. So Bob started singing, I played a straight four, Lee Perry didn’t say anything, Bob said, “OK, let me sing on it.” We played three songs, I don’t remember their names or know if they came out. “Punky Reggae Party,” the recorded version, was done in England, but Lee Perry was saying he wanted a different groove on it. But everyone played a one-drop style. So, I went into the studio, he wasn’t there, but someone said he was looking for me. I said, “Really? Put on the tape.” He put on the song, so I said, “Go into record.” I started playing and it was done in one take. That’s it, it turned into “Punky Reggae Party.” Bob had to re-voice it after I put the drums in. And Robbie played on “Concrete Jungle.”

Benji B

When Robbie comes back, maybe you can do a little demo. For those who aren’t familiar with one drop, rockers, they’re very particular patterns. Can you explain the difference?

Sly Dunbar

I’ll have to explain on the drums.

Benji B

One drop was prevalent for so many years.

Sly Dunbar

The Black Uhuru thing I played was a one drop, but the cymbal was playing what Bunny Lee would call fly cymbal.

Benji B

And the flying cymbal was what?

Sly Dunbar

It became international when it was done in a Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes song “The Love I Lost”. I think it was first done in reggae before that song.

Benji B

And the steppers is the same as the rockers, the four-beat song.

Sly Dunbar

I can do that for you when Robbie comes back.

Benji B

Later on in the ’80s, it slowed down.

Sly Dunbar

It went back to R&B style drumming instead of reggae. Some people call it ragga. Like “Love and Devotion” and some of those Dennis Brown tunes, even Black Uhuru were doing R&B. Robbie would play the bassline on top, other musicians would play reggae and guitars.

Benji B

Is there anyone in Jamaica that you haven’t worked with but would like to?

Sly Dunbar

There are some new artists coming up who’ve come to us and said they’d like to be on Taxi.

Benji B

Are there any artists who are well known in the dancehall world who we should be checking out?

Sly Dunbar

There’s a singer called Lutan Fyah… there’s Cherine Anderson who we’re working with now. And a bunch of new artists coming up, some of them are just getting into it, so I’m looking forward to working with them.

Benji B

Can you give us a little demo? [Sly goes to the drums]

So the basic one drop, the classic one drop.

(music: Sly & Robbie demo)

Speaker: Robbie Shakespeare

That’s a form of one drop.

(music: Sly & Robbie live)

Speaker: Benji B

So what are the flying cymbals?

(music: Sly & Robbie live)

So that’s when it all changed. This is you now, the steppers.

(music: Sly & Robbie live)

What’s the Sly tackle?

(music: Sly & Robbie demo / applause)

Speaker: Sly Dunbar

Bunny Lee came up with the names, he just named things. Then in the ’80s we switched to this.

(music: Sly & Robbie demo)

We’re going to play two songs for you. I don’t know what Robbie was doing with these, but he was mashing me. A tune called “[The Whole World is Africa]” by Black Uhuru, which I think is the wickedest bassline.

(music: Sly & Robbie demo / applause)

Robbie and myself just went to make music for the people. When we go inside the studio we just want to see the red light. Anything comes, anything goes.

Benji B

You’re responsible for some of the most famous rhythms, things people might not know you did. Can you play us a few of the really famous ones?

(music: Sly & Robbie demo / applause)

Time for some questions.

Audience member

How much time do you spend on the road, because obviously you spend a lot of time in the studio? And secondly, are there any places you’ve played that have surprised you, places you wouldn’t expect to be into reggae, and you get there and there's tens of thousands of people there? Because I see it as a pretty universal music language to be into rhythm. We were out last night and it was a pretty nice crowd.

Sly Dunbar

When we first went to Luxembourg the band sounded so good that everyone stood up dancing, and it felt like there was 10,000 people there. We did a concert in Germany with Black Uhuru, one of the first we did with them, and we went on stage at two o'clock in the morning. There was a band before us called Mink Deville, and they said, “We’ve got to set the pace for you guys.” And Robbie misunderstood, said, “How?” So we when we went on stage there were 15,000 people and they were jumping up. We were amazed when we finished the hour that the producer of the concert – because this was going all over Europe – said, “Just let them play, we’ll play 20 minutes extra.” We couldn’t believe it because it was live on television and radio. We couldn’t believe it, that was incredible.

Robbie Shakespeare

The one for me was in Japan doing a jazz festival. Herbie Hancock was headlining and every night we played was like a riot, 15-30,000 people rioting. The government wanted to ban it, they said Black Uhuru and Sly & Robbie are causing a riot. There were people snatching policemen’s helmets and running off with them. They said this has never happened before, so they nearly banned us. That was amazing, that was the first time we went to Japan. The second time we went there playing reggae music and seeing the response, wicked. The other time was with Peter Tosh in Italy. Every night the police had to fire gun shots and tear gas. It was in a big stadium and they bored a big hole in it, just to let the people come in and see the concert free. That was like four weeks, every night, gunshot. Those were the two for me. Wicked. [laughter]

Audience member

I’m from Sweden and I think it’s really impressive that you’ve stuck together so long because obviously you’ve got a lot of harmony between you. What’s the secret? Because in life generally and in music you see people go through success, ups and downs, and splits. Do you guys have fights or is it good times all the time?

Robbie Shakespeare

Just like anything in life, you go through a whole heap of obstacles, things you may allow to get in your way. But I respect Sly and Sly respects me. He has nothing to do with my personal life and I have nothing to do with his. There’s always some man who comes around the corner and says, “Hey, you’re the big man.” But if you want to take that, it’ll make your head grow big, it’ll mess things up. Then you have the women, the wives, “Why do you do all the work? He doesn’t do anything.” I’m not talking about Sly & Robbie, but people, period – that’s how it goes. “Baby, just cool. Wash dish, cook food, sleep and wait till I come home.” Only we know what kind of work we do. Anyone who wants to stay together a long time, just respect each other’s views, try this, try that, some go through, some don’t. But we never get in the way of each other’s personal life, never. Music will always live forever before us, after us. We make sure we get it right during our period. That’s what we work on and for that, we can stay together the next 200 years.

Audience member

After all the records you’ve released, and all the people you have made music with, what makes you go on stage with the same excitement?

Robbie Shakespeare

We live and breathe music, so that’s what happens. And you make sure people who come to see you leave happy. Every night we play is different. If you come and see us tonight it will be different from last night. We play the same old stuff, but we add new spice to it every night. Yesterday, we flew in from Jamaica and London, went straight on stage, so you saw us last night tired. Probably tonight we’ll be different.

Audience member

Has there been an hour of your life you haven’t played the bass guitar? It seems like you have to play all the time.

Robbie Shakespeare

If I see it, I play it. But when I go to sleep, I don’t want it around. I’d be afraid I’d roll over and break it and cry.

Sly Dunbar

Another reason why we’re on stage, all of us grew up together, we’re like a family, so we always go with that spirit and think in one direction – the performance. Even if we’re tired, once we’re onstage, it’s all over.

Audience member

This is a personal matter, but at the end of the show yesterday, when you did an encore, you came back with a vocalized “oh oh oh.” I want to know if that’s a Jamaican chant or stolen from a punk rock band, I’m really curious.

Robbie Shakespeare

We were on tour with a group named Pepper and they played it every night. I liked it and said, “Hey, Pepper, can I use that song?” They said yes. Then they said, “You know, it’s from a heavy metal band?” [Pennywise], but I love it, it’s so nice. We have a different one we can use, but I like that one.

Audience member

I like that one, too, that’s why I’m asking. I was like, “Man, did they hear that on Jamaican stuff? What the hell!”

Robbie Shakespeare

No, music is music, it’s a universal thing. We don’t just pick out Jamaican music or Spanish music. It’s a universal thing.

Audience member

Just a technical question: When you’re playing live, do you trigger your own delays or is the engineer doing it for you?

Sly Dunbar

The engineer, when he’s mixing. Sometimes I play that way and when he mixes, he adds the delays. That guy on the left, just there.

Robbie Shakespeare

He’s guilty.

Sly Dunbar

In the early days at Channel One you’d have a drummer on one track, so he applies the delay to the drum – that’s how I got that rhythm. But now everything’s individual so you can apply the delay individually. But that guy, he’s the guilty man [applause].

Audience member

You don’t play with a click, right? Just straight on stage?

Sly Dunbar

On stage, no, you don’t use a click. We did it the first time when we were on with Ali Campbell and all I could hear in my headphones was “click, click, click.” It was the happiest day of my life when I finished playing and took out the earpiece. But in a recording session, I never use a click – I want the rhythm to breathe and it doesn’t with the click there.

Robbie Shakespeare

It doesn’t feel natural.

Sly Dunbar

But if we have to play with click, then we do it.

Audience member

And Robbie, what’s your favorite bass amp in the studio?

Robbie Shakespeare

Right now, the Mark Bass. That’s a wicked amp.

Audience member

And in the earlier days?

Robbie Shakespeare

It used to be Ampeg, then you’d go straight to the board, so you’d hear my natural bass. But right now, it’s Mark Bass, don’t forget that. The wicked thing with that is you can plug the sound in the back and it will go exactly as you want it to the tape.

Audience member

I’m from South Africa and I want to say thank you and great respect for the performance last night and for the music. My uncle was a big fan of Bob Marley and I’ve seen a lot of videos. At that time, it seemed like an era of great vibrations, people going crazy over reggae worldwide. Where were you at that time?

Robbie Shakespeare

Bob was signed to Island, and you have to realize there weren’t many groups signed. Bob was the only one, him and Jimmy Cliff. Sly & Robbie were probably the first musicians in Jamaica to reach this level, where we could come as artists. We were there, but you wouldn’t see us at that time. You could see Burning Spear but no one saw Meditations, Mighty Diamonds, Gaylads, Alton Ellis, who just passed away, Ken Boothe, Delroy Wilson, Slim Smith and Uniques. There were a lot of wicked, wicked groups, but you didn’t see them because there was no one to sponsor them on tour. But Island sponsored Bob and before that – who was the singer who took Bob Marley out? Johnny Nash. And more power to them, because if it wasn’t for them and Bob, and Peter leaving the Wailers and going to Colombia, and us playing a different form of music… When we were on stage and Peter ran out of songs, we had to play dub, so people started to know more about Sly & Robbie.

Benji B

Time for one more.

Audience member

Thanks again for the great concert, I was wondering when I heard about the 200,000-300,000 records you made, are you happy with every one? Are there things you would’ve done differently?

Robbie Shakespeare

Sometimes, making a record is like a baby being born. If it comes out, good, you have to give thanks to God. But not everything comes out 100% right, some might be deformed, slow speech, hip-shotting [rolls hips], but you have to work at it and get it right next time. But you can’t cry over spilt milk. And not everything you love, other people will love too. Some things where you say, “I don’t really like this one,” and put it to one side, people will rush to it. Just work on it.

Benji B

The next lecture is at 5pm, but right now join me in saying thank you to Sly & Robbie.