Toshio Matsuura
One of the pioneers of the acid jazz sound, and member of the seminal production outfit United Future Organisation, Toshio Matsuura has been a driving force on the Japanese music scene for two decades. These days, he works on a solo tip: most notably on a James Brown remix that turned more than just a few heads. In this lecture at the 2006 Red Bull Music Academy, Matsuura joins Gerd Janson to dive into his fascinating work.
Hosted by GERD JANSON We've got a gentleman from Japan here by the name of Toshio Matsuura. He's one of the founding members of a group called UFO, United Future Organization, and they started out during the very early ‘90s on Talkin' Loud. Like, then Gilles Peterson was still an A&R at Talking Loud, and there was this wonderful genre called acid jazz or dancefloor jazz where people tried to melt jazz aesthetics with club aesthetics. Please give him a very warm welcome. [applause] TOSHIO MATSUURA My name is Toshio. I'm happy to come here. At first, I want to say ... I just fly out this morning, and I fly back tomorrow morning, so I'm spacey now. I want to talk, communicate with you guys more smooth. That's why [inaudible] of me. [inaudible] really explain more comfortable English for you guys. GERD JANSON But your English is pretty good, nonetheless. TOSHIO MATSUURA But I'm very spacey. So I hope you enjoy this time. Thank you. GERD JANSON So how would you describe what you're doing to someone who hasn't got a clue about music? TRANSLATOR He's visualizing dance music based on jazz. GERD JANSON Could you give us a brief definition or your definition of jazz music? TRANSLATOR It's always open-minded, and it can absorb everything. GERD JANSON So you would would say that different things can be Jazz? It's not only your normal John Coltrane record, but it could be also a modern club record in your opinion? TRANSLATOR Yes. It is correct. It is said hip-hop or house or techno, it is called like that in a record or CD shop, still he can feel it's close to him. He calls it jazz. GERD JANSON Back when you started out during the height of the whole acid jazz thing, the definition was a little more narrow, right? So maybe you could talk a little bit about that whole acid jazz scene from back in the day and how you got into that. TRANSLATOR The scene in 1980s in London, the people started to dance with jazz. It started in London in the ‘90s. It triggered him and he started to be interested in those kinds of music. The jazz called acid jazz was born from that movement. Through examining acid jazz, he discovered the source of acid jazz. Sometimes, it is soul and sometimes it is Latin music and so many other things. That's what he discovered. GERD JANSON If you're talking about London in the 80s, it's Gilles Peterson and Norman Jay at the Dingwalls club, did you fly to London back in those days to experience it firsthand or was it just something you experienced through the radio? TRANSLATOR He discovered the DJ guy named Paul Moppy who started to play jazz in a club, and he was really inspired with that. After that, he visited London in 1987, and around that time after acid music started and acid house was there as a big thing. Because of that club name was Acid House, the DJ named those kind of music as acid jazz. GERD JANSON Maybe you can play us an example of it? A song from that era or a track that was very influential to you? TOSHIO MATSUURA In the ‘80s? GERD JANSON Like a Dingwalls acid jazz classic? TOSHIO MATSUURA Let me check. (music: Har-You Percussion Group – “Welcome to the Party”) TOSHIO MATSUURA Only few clubs regularly DJ coming down play more pure music. Not really dance music but they'll just play, each by each favorite their music. After that, I go regularly to go to the club. A lot of influence from their playing. Originally, I love to go to the club to dance. Sometimes, I feel want to make. At that time, I met other two guys called Raphael and Yabe. We working together on the production. We made a production called UFO in 1990s. GERD JANSON TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. We had a chance to make tune for compilation in Tokyo. That's why we started making. Before that, it's quite difficult to make music without notice and technique any instrument. At that time, we coming more, a lot of influence from hip-hop because they made from the record to make music. GERD JANSON Like sampling and all those techniques? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. GERD JANSON Yeah. Do you have something with you from the early UFO days? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. At first, maybe 95% of the sample. Just maybe only one piano or something that sucks on the instrument from live. Any other things all sample. It's 1990. (music: UFO – unknown) (music: James Brown – “Give it up or Turn it Loose (remix)”) The New York house. Also, Detroit hip-hop. Very separated, and people techno people just listen to techno. GERD JANSON And house people just listen to house. TOSHIO MATSUURA And hip-hop, the people, really young kids or [inaudible] or something like that, wear like ... The Basketball players or something like that. It's a little bit of a shame for me. If supporting the thing is fine, but uh ... [laughs] Looks like fashion. It's very horrible. I hate that. That reason why I wearing suit always because people hate that, wearing a suit, but I'm very comfortable. GERD JANSON You look good in a suit. TOSHIO MATSUURA Thank you. GERD JANSON You told me that you tried to be very eclectic when you DJ so it's not the stubbornness that you just described. TOSHIO MATSUURA Yes, because I don't want to get bored by myself. I can't play only one beat or one [inaudible], maybe one hour each if it's enough. I want to go more. Different way, always. GERD JANSON So there are people in Japan who like the eclectic side of things, right? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yes. Some people love that, but some people hate that. Play more of one genre, [people] ask me], but I want to make surprise and I want to make think, you know, sometimes educate to way to listening. For example, house or techno, behind the music is originally from jazz or soul or any other music, but the kids only listen to new stuff. GERD JANSON So you try to mix it all up? Old stuff, new stuff, different genres. TOSHIO MATSUURA Sometimes it works, but sometimes it makes chaos. It's quite risky. GERD JANSON In which places in Tokyo can you do that? Play that eclectic? Because you are affiliated with that Blue Note club, right? You're doing...? TOSHIO MATSUURA No, I don't like Blue Note club. GERD JANSON [laughs] Then I'm misinformed. TOSHIO MATSUURA Doesn't matter, you know the venue, from a small club to a very, very big venue, I want to play. Always. I'm very stupid I think. GERD JANSON No you're not. You did radio also, right? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. GERD JANSON For a few years, or you are still doing it? Do you think that's the key or that's important in educating people with music to get the stubbornness out of it? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah, but you know my radio is not really big station, so the signal is very low. GERD JANSON Yeah. Which radio station is it? TOSHIO MATSUURA [inaudible] GERD JANSON Yeah. TOSHIO MATSUURA It's quite small. It's not like BBC or something like that. I just started through the net illegally. GERD JANSON Yeah. TOSHIO MATSUURA It worked. [People in] Brazil, from Africa, now regularly, the people through that can listen through the net [to] my stuff so it's good now. Quite important. Easy to understand what I feel, I think. GERD JANSON So the Internet is the savior of radio in our times? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. GERD JANSON Yeah. Who are the people you work with? Like you mentioned Gilles Peterson Worldwide. Maybe you can talk a little bit about those connections like the worldwide jazz scene? There is a certain group of people right working with each other. TOSHIO MATSUURA I don't know since a few years maybe I'm so lucky ... connected people and communicated people, very spontaneous, so suddenly meet somewhere or someone introduce someone, someone send an email or, you know ... it now feels good to connect, you know ... I hope this time too, only one day but I'm feeling good today so... GERD JANSON So networking is important? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah, yeah. GERD JANSON And you're not only DJing at clubs right, you're also a music consultant for fashion shows and you’re also doing a few different things? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah. I make music this day sometimes promote the artist on the party and doing [inaudible] for Gilles and Tomato from the UK. They’re graphic people. I doing agent in Japan, so yeah. So many ways to survive, but only one thing I really enjoy those things now. GERD JANSON Just getting back to the acid jazz thing for a short time. What do you think were the reasons for it to disappear because the labels like acid jazz from Eddie Piller. They stopped that at one point right? The whole scene in London got a little bit dried out. You know what I mean? I mean, the reasons for acid jazz as a genre to disappear. It disappeared at one time or dried out. People were stopping making that kind of music, acid jazz. TOSHIO MATSUURA Maybe you feel it disappear but I don't feel any disappear. Label is gone, but I think scene is still there, but very difficult to find where it is but still the scene is there but the form is really changed since a long time. GERD JANSON Yeah that's what I meant like all those bands playing. TOSHIO MATSUURA After acid jazz, maybe become big like trip-hop or any other music, but still there is but quite difficult to find. GERD JANSON Yeah. Could you play something for us that has, in your opinion, still that vibe? TOSHIO MATSUURA The new stuff, you mean? GERD JANSON Yeah, what is done these days. (music: Ray – “Amp”) (music: Pharrell – “Can I Have it Like That (feat. Gwen Stefani)”) TOSHIO MATSUURA ... what is jazz, now but for me it's all completely different all three tracks but for me it's all jazz. GERD JANSON Because they have the same feeling? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah, so it's quite to difficult play same time, but try to fit a more natural [inaudible] and the people who listening to that, this tune and is most important. GERD JANSON To make it all work. TOSHIO MATSUURA Yes. Sometimes, I told you guys, sometimes it works, and people say, “Wow!” But sometimes the floor is gone. Quite risky. GERD JANSON I think that something everyone can relate to whoever played records at a party or at a club. This happens to everyone, I guess, sometimes you know? It's hard. I meant that it's not like his fault because if you're a DJ I think you have to find one that never had an experience like that yet. TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah but I feel very bad [laughs]. GERD JANSON Yeah, if any of you guys have any questions for Toshio. AUDIENCE MEMBER Have you played live with electronics and with other instruments or improvising with electronics live? TRANSLATOR Yes. TOSHIO MATSUURA You mean the DJ and the live band? AUDIENCE MEMBER Not DJ, but like with computer or equipment. TOSHIO MATSUURA You mean the PC and the live instrument? AUDIENCE MEMBER Yeah. TOSHIO MATSUURA No. Just DJ with a band. AUDIENCE MEMBER [Speaker asks Toshio question in Japanese] TOSHIO MATSUURA That club owned by Shuya Okino. AUDIENCE MEMBER OK. Can you tell us about this club? TOSHIO MATSUURA The Room? AUDIENCE MEMBER You have no involvement with this club? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah, still going well since how long, maybe around 50 years? Very tiny club. Maybe 100 people, is packed. Still Shuya and Aruku always survive and try to make a nice vibe every time. Audience Member Hello, my name is Ana. My first question was just that...about the room, if you like to play there? But, then you like that. It's a nice club. It's a friend of mine, Shuya, and then I was wondering if you could name three of your favorite clubs in Tokyo and the third question was, do you like any artists from Sweden, and who? TOSHIO MATSUURA My favorite club called Yellow. Mainly house club, but sound system is very nice. DJ booth for DJ is really perfect. The environment is comfortable. The area is ... no one come inside, not too much request. The high booth, so if sometime go to outside of Tokyo, maybe Europe, somebody asking, talking a lot, it’s quite difficult, but that booth is very comfortable. Also, of course, The Room is very nice. Another one called Unit ... mainly live venue, but quite nice. Today, Tony Allen played there. Many more tech clubs now, but sometime ESG play. Sometime Four Tet, some [inaudible] musician plays. It's nice club. One more is club called Brew. We own the club. They’re gone five years ago, but is one of the best club in Tokyo, I think. My favorite artist in Sweden [is] Coop?. Maybe I'll [inaudible] next year. Yeah. GERD JANSON And what are your favorite artists from Japan right now? TOSHIO MATSUURA I just checked today in the plane, the band. Of course, people know the [inaudible], and Jazzy Sport, and any other artists maybe ... [inaudible], a band called Native. I got the CD last few days and quite nice. (music: Native – “Encyclopedia”) (music: Native – “4 Corners”) Jeff “Chairman” Mao Hi. Earlier, you played Har-You percussion, Har-You percussion track. What other songs from older jazz songs were influential to you? The early jazz dance songs you heard in the clubs... TOSHIO MATSUURA Quite difficult question, but... recently more modern jazz in the ‘60s and ‘70s, something like that, but still listen regularly Miles Davis Kind of Blue is my one of the best album. GERD JANSON [to audience member] You had a question right? AUDIENCE MEMBER Yeah, it's ... when you played something earlier, you said that it was 95% samples. It was made in the ‘90s ... Earlier, you played a song and you said it was from the early 90s and it was 95% samples. Now, when you make music, is it samples or more live music? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah now it's more... less sample, because if you do sample, you have to pay more money. So that's the reason why more live. AUDIENCE MEMBER And more money? TOSHIO MATSUURA Because if take sample, have to pay to the original additions. AUDIENCE MEMBER But does it cost a lot to have the live musicians rather than a sample in it? TOSHIO MATSUURA Yeah, because if sample from James Brown, we have to pay a lot, but ask the musician, more cheaper. AUDIENCE MEMBER Hi, how you doing? Around what time did you find that your music started to become popular, worldwide,? Like, internationally? Around what time, throughout the ‘90s, with UFO, when did it first start to become popular internationally? TOSHIO MATSUURA Maybe in Australia, 1994. First time to come here, 1994, I think. I don't know when, some people very fast to know... Just really with first single in 1991, maybe after a few months in London, already sold a bootleg on vinyl. Maybe some people listen very fast. Of course, now it's can listen more easier, but in early ‘90s it's quite unusual that way. AUDIENCE MEMBER So it was mostly through releasing a 12-inch back then that you were able to spread the sound of UFO? It wasn't as much through like radio and through Gilles’ show? It was more by distributing 12-inches of your music? TOSHIO MATSUURA One by one is more stronger than any marketing, I believe. GERD JANSON Thank you. TOSHIO MATSUURA Thank you. GERD JANSON So maybe if there are no more questions we should end? TOSHIO MATSUURA I am happy. GERD JANSON With, one of your, maybe, all-time favorite jazz tunes? TOSHIO MATSUURA Sorry? GERD JANSON Maybe we should end the session by listening to one of your all-time favorite jazz tunes? It's always hard to pick those, I know. TOSHIO MATSUURA I don't bring all the stuff, but ...By my tune ... Just a second with CD ... Tune called “Loud Minority” changed my life. 200% changed my life. (music: UFO – “Loud Minority” / applause) Domo arigato.